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My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

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Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#251

Post by zdragnar »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #171
knicholes wrote: post #129

If one considers Kant's categorical imperative, "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law," then also considers how they'd feel if they were go to visit a doctor who had cheated or is cheating, one certainly must draw the conclusion that cheating is indeed immoral and undesirable.

Many people reject Kant's ethical philosophy.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. There are bits that are worth considering even without adopting everything he wrote in its entirety.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#252

Post by Der_Einzige »

joenot443 wrote: post #149
whitemary wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's incredibly strange to make what's very clearly a moral argument into some kind of insulting class argument. I don't think you're going to be converting _anyone_ towards your worldview with that kind of approach. A lot of your comments are of a similar spirit and were rightfully downvoted - > The "free market" is so good at problem solving! I hope the entrepreneur who thought of this made a tremendous profit! > B…

The notion that morality and class are not directly connected is exactly how structural oppression and mass inequality are justified. The OP comment is one of the few ethical people in a fundamental unethical world. Get off your high horse and stop defending the boot on your face

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#253

Post by gedy »

sokoloff wrote: post #89
crop_rotation wrote: post #60

The thing is clearing the interviews is much harder than doing the day to day job in any of these companies. In all of big tech, most people are working on trivial crud apps or trivial services passing data around. The skills to succeed are similar to cheating in interviews. Most people I know in all of big tech have never used any data structure more complex than a resizable array. Very few people in big tech work o…

Your last point is an important one. There are a large number of incompetent applicants . Prior to the most recent round of tech layoffs, I would go so far as to say that the majority of applicants were incompetent. That's not to say the majority of programmers are incompetent, but because the interview filter processes tend to not select the incompetent, they accumulate in the applicant pool. Any "fix" to the interv…

> Any "fix" to the interview process has to accommodate the reality that the left half of the applicant pool distribution is of terribly low levels of ability.

I would like to see some distinction between people who apply cold, and people who have been reached out to by a company.

I'm an experienced, employed engineer, and if a company reaches out to me, I expect to not be treated in an interview like "gotta see if you are a faker! You could be coasting for 15 years! We get soooo many applicants."

That's the (in-house) recruiter's job, or hiring manager's. Don't waste my damn time like this.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#254

Post by itronitron »

brookst wrote: post #40
siggen wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. You have unethical people now, you are probably “cheating” at work by taking credit for ideas not theirs.

But that means the culture is also broken. Credit isn’t something you can steal in the dead of night; everyone knows who did the work. At some point, if someone says their company hires cheaters, promotes thieves, and has a culture that celebrates those things. . . either there is more to the story or that person needs to run like hell because the company is toxic.

>> everyone knows who did the work.

Not the people deciding rankings and promotions.

Consider that every manager, over the course of a year, has things they want done but which they can't directly task people to do because those people either have defined job responsibilities or require a job code to charge their time while performing the task (which the manager can't, or won't, provide.)

Now consider that there are some employees that care more about doing what their manager wants than they care for doing their job (shocking I know.) They will happily take on the 'extra-credit' tasks without regard for any collateral consequences because when it comes time for annual reviews the manager will place them at the head of the queue for promotion.

And yes that does mean that the culture is broken and it's probably why so many people hate their jobs.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#255

Post by passion__desire »

scarface74 wrote: post #166
tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

Yes because Americans never cheat to get ahead and we are all morally superior…

Americans cheat at earth-scale by bringing about into existence of intricate systems that benefit them immensely.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#256

Post by washywashy »

dariusj18 wrote: post #107
heelix wrote: post #27

I've done a lot of screening interviews and cheating does happen. Some of my favorites: * developer attempts to pass something off as video lag, as he attempts to lip sync someone else's answer. * developer had printed all the 'common' answers on the wall behind his computer, and would look up to them for reference as we were talking. Then the tape came off and covered him in a a paper stack overflow. * the glorious…

I let any of my interviewees know that it is ok to use google, I just want to know what they searched for. I'm not running a trivia contest, so if they forgot the name of something or need a little refresh, that's fine.

The problem is no matter how much training or systems a company has for its interviewing process, employees won’t read it and will inconsistently interview candidates (couldn’t remember List method == red flag; another interviewer rightly wouldn’t ding someone for this). I think interviewers really need to develop their critical thinking skills in how they judge talent. I’d rather have someone who wasn’t able to solve part three of an interview problem but high leveled some decent approaches that indicate, given more time, they’d be able to solve it. It’s interesting to me that we place this artificial time barrier on many interviews when in reality work is not chunked out that way and often takes quite a bit of thinking to come up with good solutions to things. On the other hand, I don’t think take home tests are a good solution for interviewing either. I think a lot of interviewers just end up copy catting whoever they trained with when watching interviews as a shadow (if they even had this opportunity).

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#257

Post by gs17 »

tristor wrote: post #160

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that…

> When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that had to be respected .

The reality (speaking from experience) may be that international students are a lucrative market and getting a reputation as being hard on cheating will make them choose to go elsewhere.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#258

Post by welder »

I'm curious do they get promoted from cheating or really doing the work. There are those people who get stuff done by getting others to help them do it. Not sure how the manager would find out though, without the peers who help telling.

Nice to see UT Dallas represented here, even if it's in this context.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#259

Post by rocmcd »

TheCapn wrote: post #210

My friend who got me my current job once told me about how he got into the Games industry. Back in the university days of applying to Coop positions he had a day with 2 interviews back to back. While he bombed the first interview, he had some excellent interviewers who were happy to show him where he did poorly and guide him through the problems to the correct answers. On the second interview, they used the same ques…

That's not cheating? That sounds like the interviewers could see his potential and guided/corrected him through the process. His willingness to take feedback and keep going in itself would be something to be commended, especially for a new grad.

What's discussed in the post is clear deception of the interviewers by the interviewee (using a second laptop to google answers), which is a very different thing.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#260

Post by JohnFen »

scarface74 wrote: post #176
JohnFen wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > In business there is no cheating, there is only making money and not making money. This is the attitude that turns business from being something that is for the greater benefit of all into something that more like a cancer, harmful to all.

[dead]

Business has always been about the greater benefit. Not solely (or primarily, from the business owner's perspective) about that, of course, but that aspect is the entire reason why government puts so much time, effort, and money into supporting business activities.

If business is not at least in part about the greater benefit, then we need to stop wasting so many resources supporting it.

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