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My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

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Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#151

Post by rTX5CMRXIfFG »

spicyusername wrote: post #132
asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

I relate heavily to the spirit of your comments. Wouldn't we all be better off if we lived in a society that is built on trust and honesty. However, I think you're being a little naive if you think the days of "yesteryear" were somehow different in man's capacity and willingness to do what he needs to do to survive. I mean in every facet of life we're basically awash in never before seen capacity to benefit from dish…

You can always throw the argument “it has always been like that” to any discussion, but that’s never going to be a meaningful response to anyone who cares to think critically about whether the status quo is how things should be.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#152

Post by asimpletune »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #137
asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

I'd probably hire someone based on c) but not because they were promoted, but rather because their strategy shows they know how to solve real life problems creatively rather than have a bunch of test answers memorized, and because as pointed out at the end of the article, the person couldn't just mindlessly copy/paste, they had to understand the question find a relevant answer, digest it, understand both the question…

I think that if you want to be a spy the c.) mentality is basically a necessary requirement, just so long as you don't betray your team.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#153

Post by hermannj314 »

knicholes wrote: post #129

If one considers Kant's categorical imperative, "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law," then also considers how they'd feel if they were go to visit a doctor who had cheated or is cheating, one certainly must draw the conclusion that cheating is indeed immoral and undesirable.

I'd rather my doctor look up an answer in a medical textbook rather than "not cheat" and allow me to die in adherence to the noble idea that only the ideas we can keep in our long-term memory are worthy.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#154

Post by tokai »

asimpletune wrote: post #115

Reading some of the comments in this thread I'm surprised. It seems that a substantial number of people think one of the following: a.) cheating on interviews is ok, because interviews don't reflect the actual job b.) this is acceptable because the promotion process is distinct from the interview process or c.) that the cheaters clearly are skilled after all because of all their success, as evidenced by being promote…

Sure if they worked with something important like plumbing, teaching, etc.. But anyone drawing money out of Amazon while (presumably) lowering productivity is doing work that is objectively leaving the world better off.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#155

Post by selcuka »

wootland wrote: post #145
selcuka wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you think the promotion of an engineer would have any effect on the CEOs pay. Someone was going to be promoted anyway, the CEO couldn't care less about who. The problem here is that it should have been supposedly someone else who actually earned it.

I’m saying that it’s pointless to get upset at someone getting a raise when the person in charge makes orders of magnitude the amount of money you do. That is the problem, not labor doing what it can to eke out a microscopic amount of leverage.

That's whataboutism, though. Why should I focus on some other problem when we are talking about this problem now.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#156

Post by wootland »

selcuka wrote: post #155
wootland wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m saying that it’s pointless to get upset at someone getting a raise when the person in charge makes orders of magnitude the amount of money you do. That is the problem, not labor doing what it can to eke out a microscopic amount of leverage.

That's whataboutism, though. Why should I focus on some other problem when we are talking about this problem now.

This isn’t a problem. That’s the point.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#157

Post by FredPret »

psychphysic wrote: post #136
knicholes wrote: post #129

If one considers Kant's categorical imperative, "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law," then also considers how they'd feel if they were go to visit a doctor who had cheated or is cheating, one certainly must draw the conclusion that cheating is indeed immoral and undesirable.

So basically "do unto others" but phrased needlessly complexly?

The golden rule with gilded edges

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#158

Post by smugma »

psychphysic wrote: post #136
knicholes wrote: post #129

If one considers Kant's categorical imperative, "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law," then also considers how they'd feel if they were go to visit a doctor who had cheated or is cheating, one certainly must draw the conclusion that cheating is indeed immoral and undesirable.

So basically "do unto others" but phrased needlessly complexly?

Kind of, but no. This explains the “needless” complexity well, but it is complex:

https://philosophynow.org/issues/125/The_Golden_Rule_Revisit...).

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#159

Post by antihero »

selcuka wrote: post #133
wootland wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd add d) when all of the gains are captured by execs and investors, if you don't do everything you can to maximize your return and minimize your input, you're being exploited. It's strange to me that anyone would care about people cheating at job interviews and not say CEO pay that's 1,000X the average employee. More power to those who can balance things in their favor against those who have everything to gain and…

It's interesting that you think the promotion of an engineer would have any effect on the CEOs pay. Someone was going to be promoted anyway, the CEO couldn't care less about who. The problem here is that it should have been supposedly someone else who actually earned it.

It’s not about impacting the CEO’s pay, it’s about exceeding maximum value from a job that is exploiting you in order for them to get that pay and benefit shareholders. Other than a few SMEs run by genuinely good people, capitalism puts us in adversarial position because if we don’t take one we’ll be hugely taken advantage of.

Re: My friends who cheated in interviews are getting promoted (2022)

#160

Post by tristor »

I'm probably going to get roasted for saying this, but this is completely unsurprising to me. When I was in college, folks from India and other low trust societies would mercilessly cheat on their projects and exams, blatantly helping one another on individual works, and the college knew about it and didn't care. When I had brought this up at one point, I was told by a professor that it was a cultural difference that had to be respected and that it wouldn't matter anyway because in the workforce I'd excel and they would not, so why did I care? After entering the workforce I encountered many many resumes, especially from contract houses / body shops, that were obviously lies, and have interviewed thousands of candidates across my career that clearly lied on their resume.

My basic take is that low trust societies encourage cheating and dishonesty and think if you're honest and honorable that you're a naive rube asking to be taken advantage of. For my part, I've never cheated in any interview, in anything at school, and never lied on my resume, yet being in tech which is dominated by people who originate in low trust societies, I see how it becomes something insidious that creates extremely negative behavioral norms in corporate politics, where it's now acceptable for people to bald-face lie about project status, receipt of information, or the severity of an issue if it gets them ahead or makes someone else look bad and deflects the blame.

Luckily, my professor was right though, despite exposure to a lot of negative behaviors I don't like, don't respect, and don't endorse, I did excel and I continue to excel above my peers, especially those who cheated. Cheating ultimately cheats oneself, but it's very galling that it's now becoming accepted as okay behavior in American society due to cultural shifts aligned to low trust societies we do business with. The Blind app demographics make it unsurprising to see this there or that it's essentially universally supported in the comments there. I am honestly unsurprised that most of the comments on HN support it. There's absolutely an attitude of "lie now, and figure out how to make it not a lie before investors or customers notice" in the startup world as well. Frankly, it disappoints me deeply that so much our society has become one big grift, especially as someone who entered the tech industry when it was still dominated by honest nerds doing cool stuff.

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