Live data from Hacker News

Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

techradar.com

201–210 of 344 posts

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this isn't a question of logic, it's a question of definition. And all the discussion I can find online say breaking a contract doesn't fall under the definition of "illegal". Do you have an authoritative source that defines it otherwise?

>And all the discussion I can find online say breaking a contract doesn't fall under the definition of "illegal". IIUC, breaking a contract is a civil tort[0]: A tort is an act or omission that gives rise to injury or harm to another and amounts to a civil wrong for which courts impose liability. In the context of torts, "injury" describes the invasion of any legal right, whereas "harm" describes a loss or detriment…

> And torts (again, IIUC) are not the breaking of a legal code

Torts are (in the US, other jurisdictions may differ) either statutory torts, which break a particular, legislatively adopted code, or breaches of the common law and, as such, illegal just as crimes under the common law are in those jurisdictions which (unlike the federal system) continue to recognize common law crimes.

Both are illegal.

Though this is also somewhat tangential since as well as being wrong about the nature of torts such that your “torts are not illegal” argument is founded on faulty assumptions, you are also wrong in that, while contracts are, like torts, civil, breach of contract is not a tort.

> Something illegal is dealt with in a criminal court

No, something criminal is dealt with in criminal court. Illegal is a superset of criminal.

> Civil torts are not contained within any legal code

The United States Code has 54 “titles”. Crimes and criminal procedure are Title 18. What do you think most violations of the other 53 titles are? Largely (but not entirely) statutory torts.

Similarly, what do you think most violations of the 28 California Codes that aren’t the Penal Code are? Especially the Civil Code? Again largely, but not entirely, torts (the Commercial Code, relevant to this conversation, also significantly deals with contracts.)

> But breach of contract by itself is just breaking the rules agreed upon by the parties to a contract.

Breach of contract — the thing actionable in court — is breaking the rules in law as to when compliance with rules agreed to between parties are compulsory. That’s what makes it actionable.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#202

What I want to do is not have to have a unified build system for multiple platforms and ABIs without any problem, but for some reason, to target anything apple, I have to use a physical apple machine. It's absolutely abusing market position, because it ends up being that in my profession, you end up purchasing mac computers for the whole office, because then you can target all platforms without any fuss. Not because…

Yes, and I wonder why do we have Wine to run Windows stuff on Linux, but we have no equivalent to run OSX programs on Linux ... Is nobody interested in implementing the OSX APIs on Linux?

It's a very fast moving target. Apple keeps rewriting and deprecating stuff faster than they can write the documentation. As a newcomer to native macOS development, I'm sometimes struggling to even find working examples.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#203
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering a couple years ago, "Apple Hardware" was an intel CPU with an nvidia GPU I've always wondered why you couldn't just throw a million dollars at them so they could stick apple stickers on your rack and let you run MacOS VMs. The company I used to work for had to do crazy gymnastics just to test software and scan for malware on their OS.

Nvidia? Which apple product had Nvidia in it?

My Mid 2014, 15" Macbook Pro has both Intel and Nvidia.

Chipset Model: Intel Iris Pro

Chipset Model: NVIDIA GeForce GT 750M

This Macbook pro was a free upgrade from Apple after I'd had 3 mainboard replacements because they'd had faulty GPU's on my 2011 MBP ( see https://web.archive.org/web/20170119031155/https://people.ca... for background) - Basically after I found out what was going on I took my 'repaired' machine home and stress tested it until it failed. After the very quick repeated failures Apple decided to replace my machine completely.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't reply to the child comment, but... I only found one article about this from back in 2008. It was definitely a thing back then, I just can't find it.... But indeed likely second fiddle to the gpu issues around the same time, I totally forgot about that.

The comment time stamp is clickable, you should see the reply button there.

Oh wow, I have been on HN for many years, never knew this feature.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#205

What I want to do is not have to have a unified build system for multiple platforms and ABIs without any problem, but for some reason, to target anything apple, I have to use a physical apple machine. It's absolutely abusing market position, because it ends up being that in my profession, you end up purchasing mac computers for the whole office, because then you can target all platforms without any fuss. Not because…

In my case with Flutter framework, I buy cheap MS Windows or Linux box and the build children are Minis even an Apple mini. I have not priced it out yet, but I expect it to be cheaper in the long-run than buying time on cloud testing lab set ups.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#206

What I want to do is not have to have a unified build system for multiple platforms and ABIs without any problem, but for some reason, to target anything apple, I have to use a physical apple machine. It's absolutely abusing market position, because it ends up being that in my profession, you end up purchasing mac computers for the whole office, because then you can target all platforms without any fuss. Not because…

Technically it's possible, but possibly not legal: https://github.com/tpoechtrager/osxcross > Please ensure you have read and understood the Xcode license terms before continuing. According to the EULA you may only use the SDK on Apple-branded computers. But you can use Linux to cross compile to Apple. Do the Visual Studio build tools have more permissive license terms? AFAIK you can have clang-cl on Linux, but you d…

It's unfortunately not legal. Makes it also not commercially viable. Cross-compiling is nice, but if the build toolchain requires xcode, then it doesn't help all that much, since the last and most important step has to be done on apple hardware.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#207

Can someone remind me why Apple is so anti-VM in seemingly every instance? It just seems so arbitrary and unhelpful, and I have a hard time imagining that the amount of hardware purchased it forces outweigh the benefits from making macOS/iOS better platforms for development and computation. It just seems like such an odd stance to take.

They want to sell hardware. I'm reminded of this every day when I can't use Apple Reminders and Calendar properly on non-Apple devices. I have an Apple phone but use a non-Apple computer. You used to be able to have a web interface to Reminders, but they changed it and now you can't add tasks in the web interface. No worries then, let's use Caldav. Hmmm, can't add a Caldav server to iCloud anymore. Ahh, we can add a…

And this is why I don't want to buy any Apple device. It seems that it's all or nothing for them. If you have a mix of apple and non-apple devices then you'll have all sorts of compatibility problems.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and I wonder why do we have Wine to run Windows stuff on Linux, but we have no equivalent to run OSX programs on Linux ... Is nobody interested in implementing the OSX APIs on Linux?

It's a very fast moving target. Apple keeps rewriting and deprecating stuff faster than they can write the documentation. As a newcomer to native macOS development, I'm sometimes struggling to even find working examples.

Agree. This is why WWDC videos can be immensely useful to get inside information about how things actually work and the shape of things to come.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#209

What I want to do is not have to have a unified build system for multiple platforms and ABIs without any problem, but for some reason, to target anything apple, I have to use a physical apple machine. It's absolutely abusing market position, because it ends up being that in my profession, you end up purchasing mac computers for the whole office, because then you can target all platforms without any fuss. Not because…

In my case with Flutter framework, I buy cheap MS Windows or Linux box and the build children are Minis even an Apple mini. I have not priced it out yet, but I expect it to be cheaper in the long-run than buying time on cloud testing lab set ups.

We also use flutter, and have extensive native code that needs to be compiled for each platform/abi. What you describe is similar to the setup we used. However, more and more developers have opted to get a MacBook in order to avoid the hassle. It might make sense to just have a dedicated mac computer running a gitlab worker that builds the iOS stuff for us.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#210
post #85

Before anyone jumps to conclusions, all this ruling means is that this example of an iOS virtual machine (for the purpose of security research) counts as fair use. It doesn't exactly open the doors for everyone to run iOS in virtual machines.

There has been at least one massive exploit that involved malware cloning Android phones to run a banking app in virtual machines on a server. Perhaps Apple just wants to prevent something similar happening with iOS.

(I edited this post, because I don't want to give any criminals reading this too many details.)

Post reply on HN