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Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

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Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#31
post #27
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can run Chrome, which has a virtual machine in it. Maybe not the same kind of virtual machine that you're talking about, but this is the kind of virtual machine that Apple has banned: any kind of code that isn't statically compiled, that isn't immediately readable. This is why Chrome (actual, not the thin cosmetic shell over Safari WebView available now) can't run on iOS: Chrome has to download & run JS code, and…

>pulled an Apple and banned anything but statically compiled code in WebExtensions Yes; the point of this move is specifically to render the vast majority of adblocking efforts non-viable.

I'm not quite so pointed. I am quite willing to believe 98% of the really bad shit the Chrome Store extensions team has seen, the really henious anti-user malware shit, has been dynamically delivered payloads. I think there's real cases to be made.

But I also don't think those security woes justify the horror Google is besetting upon users. I don't think it justifies stripping away agency in such broad course. I think it's hypocritical & shameful in extreme they'd do what the worst most fascist competitor does on their app store. I think the team isn't honest, hasn't presented viable evidence, hasn't made the case, hasn't presented real evidence for their actions in nudering web extensions. I have many many qualms.

But I think I can still see legit cause for what would make them so very very cowardly, to do such a henious & unbespeakable act as they've doing with WebExtensions MV3.

Alas it's just misaligned incentives here. Ideally users would actually see what pages & the extensions do. We could be our own network, our own reviwers, we could warn each other of malware. But Google, like all app-store providers, is the only intermediary of trust, has made themselves solely responsible. Rather than tackle this as a mature problem of great powers that must be watched and regulated, they've taken an extremely convenient & easy route out that makes their job as authoritarian regulators infinitely easier, at the expense of enormous power, at the expense of becoming extreme & perposterous hypocrites at the foot of the Apple tribulations they've undergone, but in a much worse manner.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#32
post #28
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see wanting Apple to lose, but I can't imagine wanting Epic to win. That was such an ugly parasitic business model: let others take the risks to build platforms, let others operate the platforms, get the courts to mandate equal treatment for Epic to swoop in after the risks pay off. I'd have to sympathy for the phone platforms, but it would have destroyed the console market overnight. No way consoles work if ev…

It's been working out fine for the Steam Deck. Sure, you can install Windows and/or any other storefront, but you won't have the console-like experience that Valve's own software provides. It's trivially easy to install pirated games on the Deck, without any cracking or modification of the system. You never have to make a single Steam purchase after buying the Deck, but Valve's betting that you will. And they're righ…

The steam deck is a way different value proposition compared to consoles though, console manufacturers take a loss for initial consoles sold until they can bring costs.

Whereas the steam deck has likely been sold as a profit from day one.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#33
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can run Chrome, which has a virtual machine in it. Maybe not the same kind of virtual machine that you're talking about, but this is the kind of virtual machine that Apple has banned: any kind of code that isn't statically compiled, that isn't immediately readable. This is why Chrome (actual, not the thin cosmetic shell over Safari WebView available now) can't run on iOS: Chrome has to download & run JS code, and…

Can you tone it down a bit with the “has a virtual machine in it” part. The word you are looking for is “sandbox” virtualization.

I'm not sure what logic or system you're applying, but it seems categorically wrong. Java is a VM. JS has a VM. .NET has a VM. These are all virtual machines. They're their own execution engines running compiled user code.

I think your gatekeeping here is very technically incorrect. This isn't tone. This is what the industry actually has used for multiple decades now as terminology. Is the code being run natively compiled? No? Is it running in a machine which is virtual? It's a virtual machine. This has incredibly long precdence of terminology. It's been what Apple has gate-kept with for a long time now. I disagree with your tone policing, on a number of grounds.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#35
Now I'd like to be able to legally run MacOS on a virtual machine or on AWS or Azure or Google Cloud or something. I know you can rent a bare metal Apple Mini or something, but Apple's terms of service make this all basically illegal to use like any other VM.

That means if I want to develop an app for iOS (beyond just what you can do in Swift Playgrounds), I can't just boot up a VM or AWS instance, I have to either buy an actual Mac Mini (cheapest option) or rent one.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#36
post #28
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see wanting Apple to lose, but I can't imagine wanting Epic to win. That was such an ugly parasitic business model: let others take the risks to build platforms, let others operate the platforms, get the courts to mandate equal treatment for Epic to swoop in after the risks pay off. I'd have to sympathy for the phone platforms, but it would have destroyed the console market overnight. No way consoles work if ev…

It's been working out fine for the Steam Deck. Sure, you can install Windows and/or any other storefront, but you won't have the console-like experience that Valve's own software provides. It's trivially easy to install pirated games on the Deck, without any cracking or modification of the system. You never have to make a single Steam purchase after buying the Deck, but Valve's betting that you will. And they're righ…

I mean... working fine, in that the only people who buy them are pretty techy.

It's not so easy to get Win 10 working right, it requires a fair bit of effort, and the experience sucks.

I'm not so sure Steam would be super happy if Epic started distributing a new frontend and store through their marketplace. I'm quite sure they wouldn't let them.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#37
post #25
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see wanting Apple to lose, but I can't imagine wanting Epic to win. That was such an ugly parasitic business model: let others take the risks to build platforms, let others operate the platforms, get the courts to mandate equal treatment for Epic to swoop in after the risks pay off. I'd have to sympathy for the phone platforms, but it would have destroyed the console market overnight. No way consoles work if ev…

What if consoles make money from games without turning games into rent-to-play with no resale value? Platforms are hostile to the consumer and can't die quickly enough for me, that's why I wanted Epic to win.

You are complaining about companies mistreating consumers and you wanted Epic to win? They're as shitty as they come. https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/12/245-milli...

Apple has provided the world 1000x more value than Epic ever will. Justice prevailed.

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#38
post #23

It's funny how the 30% tax and App Store nonsense automatically makes me want Apple to lose every single court case in perpetuity. Having such a monopoly on a device you purchase really means the legal system needs to take you down a notch.

I was hoping they'd lose against Epic, but alas.

I'm glad you didn't get your wish. https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/blog/2022/12/245-milli...

Re: Apple just lost its lawsuit trying to ban iOS virtual machines

#40
post #32
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been working out fine for the Steam Deck. Sure, you can install Windows and/or any other storefront, but you won't have the console-like experience that Valve's own software provides. It's trivially easy to install pirated games on the Deck, without any cracking or modification of the system. You never have to make a single Steam purchase after buying the Deck, but Valve's betting that you will. And they're righ…

The steam deck is a way different value proposition compared to consoles though, console manufacturers take a loss for initial consoles sold until they can bring costs. Whereas the steam deck has likely been sold as a profit from day one.

This is why the steam deck is a good example? The console doesn't have to be sold at a loss in order to sell games.

It would be better overall for competition for the games to be decoupled from the console. Same as with phone apps

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