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The seven specification ur-languages

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Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#31

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

> If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution?

It's very much not. The thing is that every model is a lie, but they can often be very useful lies. The reason we use taxonomic trees is because they're "good enough" but there are tons of places where this really breaks down.

For example, horizontal gene transfer is a huge problem in microorganisms. If you take a soil fungi from one environment and put it in a completely new one it'll become so stressed out that it somehow increases it's rate of HGT and can borrow genes from completely different clades of life like bacteria or algae. HGT actually happens at more macro scales as well. Many of our GMOs take genes from bacteria and put them into plants. Parasitic plants like dodders are known for taking (and spreading) genes from the wide variety of plants it can parasitize (though this might be the wrong word to use given that we now know it plays a host of beneficial ecological roles to its hosts like acting as an above-ground myccorhizal network allowing plants to "talk" to each other). We also know that HGT is quite common across completely unrelated fish and sometimes we even have certain animals, like the hoatzin (Opisthocomus hoazin), that push scientists to completely reevaluate their "tree of life" assumptions[0] (aside: this one's particularly bizarre because it even looks like a medieval depiction of a hybrid beast that took different parts of different animals and mashed them together).

Another more obvious problem is just simple hybridization. It can happen across species with regularity (especially in some plant families), but over the deep history of time much larger jumps seem less "rare". On the micro scale it happens so often that "species" is rarely a useful category. Both botany and microbiology often refer to "species complex" instead

Additionally, it's not really clear what an "organism" often is. For example, lichen are actually a partnership between algae and fungi but are given their own species name. Neither of the two can live without each other. And actually we're finding that it's basically a whole ecosystem of many different algae and a fungi. That might not seem as complex but consider that millions of years ago a germ ate another germ and that eaten germ continued to live and reproduce inside it and eventually came to be known as "mitochondria" and form the basis of basically all animals and plants. To this day they have their own DNA but their reproduction is completely tied to us. Also consider the fact that a human is actually mostly germs. Germs outnumber the number of cells in your body (well this can vary based on antibiotic treatments or how long since your last shit). These complex ecosystems that play critical roles in our skin, eyes, guts, and even brains are necessary to our survival. We wouldn't be able to EAT without them! Lastly, take the example of the man o' war. Similar to lichen, it seems at some point ~13 or so different animals came together and worked together so strongly that they essentially merged and became a single organism. Some of the parts of a man o war can even survive without the rest of the "colony" for a short while (imagine if your kidney could just do it's own thing). But, like lichen, it gets its own species name

As you can see there's a number of flaws in the "tree" view of evolution. It works well enough for most cases and that's why we still use it. But try looking up the debates around a taxonomy of human languages. In theory the same approaches should be able to be applied and the same problems (cultural equivalents of "HGT", "hybridization", and blurry lines between "symbiosis and dependency") can apply.

Edit: oh hole #4: ring species!

[0] https://www.newyorker.com/science/elements/the-bizarre-bird-...

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this article is referring to physical organisms known as trees (as your article does). It's talking about abstract tree structures, in particular: 1. There is a coherent parent-child relationship 2. Children have only one parent 3. Children have no lateral relationships with other children 4. Relationships are mediated through parents, not e.g. grandparent-child directly. 5. We can coherently differenti…

I'm 95% sure that the author (who is on HN[1]) is at least referring to the article "There's No Such Thing As A Tree" in his line "There is no such thing as a tree." - regardless of the fact that the article as a whole isn't about trees made of wood. It's possible that he's additionally making a double entendre about abstract tree structures. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=hwayne

Yeah, I was thinking about biological trees. In retrospect, I should've gone with "there's no such thing as a fish."

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#33
post #3

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

Well, this clearly references this wonderful article: https://eukaryotewritesblog.com/2021/05/02/theres-no-such-th... The idea is that our taxonomy selects a group named "trees", but there's little internal coherence in that group, which probably results in more online hilly wars in the plant-loving communities than we the laypeople can think of. See also: is Pluto a planet?

> our taxonomy

What exactly do you mean by "our taxonomy". There's no plant order, family, or genus called trees. It's just a common plant form. Do you just mean some people's personal mental model?

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#34

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

> If so, wouldn’t it be incompatible with the theory of evolution?

It would be incompatible with viewing some past views of the mechanisms of evolution as complete; the “theory of evolution” beyond broad outline is something of a moving target that accommodates things like the ways in which taxonomies are approximate abstractions that aid in discussion rather than exact descriptions of reality.

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming wrong, I'm afraid. No relation to the city of Ur.

I get that the prefix entered our lexicon from german, but frankly you don't have enough information to say that there is no relation. The city of Ur is 4000 years older than Old High German, and Ur has been used as a metaphor for the origin of things for thousands of years, even ancient Greece. You can't definitively say that the idea of Ur as an origin of civilization had no influence on german.

> frankly you don't have enough information to say that there is no relation

I'm not a scholar of this subject. If there is good scholarship out there presenting good arguments in your direction I'll take it. I was just helping out a fellow that has a doubt with my best knowledge of the subject, which is not just a guess.

> has been used as a metaphor for the origin of things for thousands of years, even ancient Greece

Has it really? I'd love to see an example. Sure it's listed in the Bible along with a bunch of other place names, but as a metaphor for the origin of things?

Even if there are examples, I'd really love to see an etymological trace of how it would end up as a prefix. Was it used as such in ancient Greek? In Latin? Sounds like a folk etymology.

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#36

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

Are you sure evolution is tree like? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution That said, some categories are real, precise, and useful, like integers vs reals vs complex numbers.

Sorry, as stated above I misunderstood "There is no such thing as a tree." to mean that OP though taxonomic trees were fundamentally broken in some way, I misunderstood OP!

That said, if we had perfect knowledge of the speciation process over the years, would our taxonomy not be extremely close to a perfect tree, where every node has 2+ branches, and branches don't converge to being species-compatible for breeding?

I get convergent evolution, but among large (let's say 10g+) organisms, I'm not aware of convergent evolution resulting in compatible species that would not otherwise have been compatible?

I'm super rusty on this topic, but if there is theory that large organism actual DNA-level speciation (resulting in individuals who cannot reproduce together) has eventuated to convergence back to a new species (who can reproduce together), I'd love a source. I definitely could have very rusty knowledge on this but it seems intuitive to me?

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#37

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

The theory of evolution requires large and fundamental changes in organisms over time due to natural selection over diverse populations with characteristics being passed on by reproduction. Such that very different organisms can have common reproductive ancestors.

It does not in fact require a specific number of clearly delineated categories of organisms where all individual organisms are in one and only one category.

That part is a human invention to try to make sense of the world, rather than part of the mechanics of the world itself. The categorization is probably a necessary invention to try to make sense of the world in a scientific systematic way, and is also inevitably a broken inconsistent subjective biased over-simplified map of the territory.

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#38
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 95% sure that the author (who is on HN[1]) is at least referring to the article "There's No Such Thing As A Tree" in his line "There is no such thing as a tree." - regardless of the fact that the article as a whole isn't about trees made of wood. It's possible that he's additionally making a double entendre about abstract tree structures. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=hwayne

Yeah, I was thinking about biological trees. In retrospect, I should've gone with "there's no such thing as a fish."

Haha yes please! I thought you were talking about literal taxonomic trees.

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#39
post #31

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

> If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? It's very much not. The thing is that every model is a lie, but they can often be very useful lies. The reason we use taxonomic trees is because they're "good enough" but there are tons of places where this really breaks down. For example, horizontal gene transfer is a huge problem in microorganisms. If you take a soil fungi from one environment and p…

I get convergent evolution, but among large (let's say 10g+) organisms, I'm not aware of convergent evolution resulting in compatible species (with fertile offsping) that would not otherwise have been compatible?

I'm super rusty on this topic, but if there is theory that large organism actual DNA-level speciation (resulting in individuals who cannot reproduce together) has eventuated to convergence back to a new species (who can reproduce together with fertile offspring), I'd love a source. I definitely could have very rusty knowledge on this but it seems intuitive to me?

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#40
post #27

This is a good list but is almost more accurately called a list of modeling languages. At the very least it’s a very particular interpretation of specification, which makes sense from a TLA+ expert but is incomplete. In particular I think there are a few candidate ur-specification languages that could be included: * first-order logic, this captures what almost every deductive verifier uses, and has a surprisingly ric…

Based on the state of academic conferences in formal methods, I would have 4 languages: temporal logic, first order logic, concurrent separation logic and dependent type theory. This categorization provides generalizing powers because tools, techniques and limitations mostly map onto it.

* temporal logic: almost exclusively used by model checkers. Usually propositional, has limited/no support for quantifiers. Also usually only able to express path properties. This for example makes it hard to state “is_sorted”.

* first-order logic: used by deductive (semi-automatic) verifiers. Can reason about complex properties of state (ie : `is_sorted`), harder but not impossible, to reason about temporal properties. Ill-suited to describe properties involving shared state or concurrency. Used by SMT solvers in particular (good automation). Also used by most deductive verifiers and liquid type systems. Examples: Dafny, Why3, SPARK (spec part), liquid Haskell.

* concurrent separation logic: can be either propositional, first-order or higher order. Does much of the same kinds of properties as FOL, but it can reason about shared state and concurrency, in fact it’s quite good for that. This expressivity usually means it’s harder to reason about / prove specifications. Examples: Iris, Viper, Verifast.

* dependent type theory: when you start pondering what it even means to specify something, the gods of CS bestow upon you a vision of the haskell-curry isomorphism and your programs become specifications and your specifications become programs. This is the “ultimate” level of specification, and the foundation for proof assistants. Examples: Coq, Lean

Each of these categories is well represented at conferences and pretty much every paper falls into one of these four buckets. These also map roughly onto verification methodologies and problem domains.

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