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The seven specification ur-languages

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Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#11
post #6

I am confused - what does "ur-" prefix mean?

I’m assuming it is something like a Cradle of Civilization (the city of Ur is recognized as one of a handful). They are civilizations of which all other civilizations are derived…they have no predecessor civilizations.

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#12
post #6

I am confused - what does "ur-" prefix mean?

I’m assuming it is something like a Cradle of Civilization (the city of Ur is recognized as one of a handful). They are civilizations of which all other civilizations are derived…they have no predecessor civilizations.

You're assuming wrong, I'm afraid. No relation to the city of Ur.

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#13

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

This would be incompatible only if we require realistic interpretation of our taxonomies and theory of evolution can be true regardless of our (anti)realistic commitments.

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#14

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

The thing with taxonomies is that trying to make a category more precise tends to exclude things you want to include in it, and vice-versa. It is especially easy to find examples of this in nature, because nature has existed since long before humans had opinions about how things should be organized.

What is a cat? It's a small furry quadruped in family Felidae.

- Exception: cats may be quite large (lions, tigers).

- Exception: cats may have no fur (sphinx cats).

- Exception: cats may have fewer than four legs (e.g. due to injury).

Even questions that seem like they should be quite easy to settle, like "are these two gulls of the same or different species?", might be impossible to define formally due to things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species>.

With the specific example of "no such thing as a tree", the category of plants that humans call "trees" isn't a genetically coherent group. Lots of different types of plants have woody stems and bark and leaves, and you can't group together all the things humans call trees without also including things that we definitely don't.

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#15

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

Taxonomy is just bureaucracy, evolution is real and breaks taxonomy, because evolution works on the level of individuals and genes, when taxonomy works on leaky abstractions called species and groups of species.

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#16

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

What is the difference between a biological mutation and a new species? There are thousands of years of grey area between the two. The Theory of Evolution is a tree-like model to summarize billions of years of biological mutations into neat little branches, but we essentially have to ignore the vast periods of grey area in order to turn that into a tree.

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#17

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

Are you sure evolution is tree like? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution That said, some categories are real, precise, and useful, like integers vs reals vs complex numbers.

I've been saying it for years. Life is not a tree, it's a DAG.

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#18

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

Are you sure evolution is tree like? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution That said, some categories are real, precise, and useful, like integers vs reals vs complex numbers.

Convergent evolution doesn't make evolution non-tree-like, that's just a tree with similar-looking branches or leaves at different locations. Pretty standard really. Convergent evolution makes taxonomy less tree-like.

Carcinization is a good example: it makes lots of things crab-like, so from a surface taxonomic point of view a flattop crab, a coconut crab, and marbled crab are all pretty crabby. But they're completely different evolutionary lineages, and only one of them is a "true crab".

Where evolution gets less tree-like is MGEs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_genetic_elements) as some of them can move between branches.

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#19

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

I have a couple of sources that agree with the proposition that taxonomies are broken, linked below. The short summary is that they can be useful, but they are always just models of the real world. As such, they will always be broken in some way. Even the example of number is incomplete. Is infinity odd, even, or something else?

Voodoo categorisation and dynamic ontologies in the world of OER: https://web.archive.org/web/20190505064655/https://blog.mood...

Ontology is Overrated: Categories, Links, and Tags: https://web.archive.org/web/20070119210402/http://www.shirky...

Re: The seven specification ur-languages

#20
post #3

> All taxonomies are broken, full stop. Your categories are gonna be completely wrong and everybody’s going to argue over every single thing. There is no such thing as a tree. Is this a serious statement? If so, wouldn't it be incompatible with the theory of evolution? Would an alien taxonomy of human binary numbers not be a legitimate tree?

Well, this clearly references this wonderful article: https://eukaryotewritesblog.com/2021/05/02/theres-no-such-th... The idea is that our taxonomy selects a group named "trees", but there's little internal coherence in that group, which probably results in more online hilly wars in the plant-loving communities than we the laypeople can think of. See also: is Pluto a planet?

I don't think this article is referring to physical organisms known as trees (as your article does). It's talking about abstract tree structures, in particular:

1. There is a coherent parent-child relationship

2. Children have only one parent

3. Children have no lateral relationships with other children

4. Relationships are mediated through parents, not e.g. grandparent-child directly.

5. We can coherently differentiate between different children

etc.

All of these are assumptions that greatly simplify analysis and therefore useful in any situations, but almost always fail in some way on closer inspection.

More generally we go to the saying "all models are wrong, some are useful."

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