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Reddit takes a new direction

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Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#41

Post by [deleted] »

Anderkent wrote: post #31
blhack wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh for crying out loud... The stuff that was allowed on reddit would get you an instant, permanent ban on pretty much every website on the internet. Do you even know what SOPA, PIPA or ACTA do? Reddit has voluntarily taken the stance they won't allow the trade and index of child pornography on their website. That has got nothing to do with DNS takedowns for linking to copyrighted material. It was a private decision m…

He mentioned SOPA PIPA and ACTA because somethingawfuls stance of these reflects its general trustworthiness. No one argues that illegal content should not be removed, and uploaders banned. Which was already being done. Child pornography was never allowed on reddit, and was removed as it was reported. This is not preventing 'exploitation of children', it's just a majority censoring topics it finds inconvenient/distur…

[deleted]

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#42

Post by Anderkent »

blhack wrote: post #34
Anderkent wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He mentioned SOPA PIPA and ACTA because somethingawfuls stance of these reflects its general trustworthiness. No one argues that illegal content should not be removed, and uploaders banned. Which was already being done. Child pornography was never allowed on reddit, and was removed as it was reported. This is not preventing 'exploitation of children', it's just a majority censoring topics it finds inconvenient/distur…

>This is not preventing 'exploitation of children' It's preventing the trade of child pornography. How on earth do you not see this as exploitative? >It's weird how reddit was a bastion for resisting SOPA/ACTA but fear mongering in US can take over a site. That has nothing to do with SA.

>It's preventing the trade of child pornography. How on earth do you not see this as exploitative?

Production of child pornography is exploitative for sure. Trade? Not really, but I accept it should be illegal because it provides incentive for production. However this is not about explicit child pornography, which was never allowed on reddit and was being removed as soon as someone noticed it. Nothing changed there - it will still be banned as soon as someone will notice it. No gain from the change of stance. What has changed, however, is the banning of content that is not illegal, but that some people find disgusting/creepy.

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#43

Post by alecco »

kijin wrote: post #28
alecco wrote: post #12

Reddit is changing. It's currently in a renewed and stronger Eternal September. Bastion subreddits like /r/AskScience and /r/Truereddit are reduced to junk and fads. The hope for the group of moderated subreddits (Republic of Reddit) didn't really take off, it's just a handful of submitters. The top voted comments on threads about censorship are mostly 1 to 3 months old users. And now reddit (had to) surrender to a d…

Exchanging child pornography is illegal in the United States (as well as in many other countries). There's nothing unreasonable about stating in your TOS that you can't have a subreddit the very existence of which breaks the law. Sure, people can try to reopen these subreddits under different names, but once the rule is in the TOS, they can be reported on and shut down as a matter of routine. The same applies to ware…

What are you talking about? Reddit had a very strong stance aginst CP already.

And there's a lot of rules broken on /r/trees so it's far from safe. Like meetups to exchange or people giving tips. That's not legal in US and happens quite often there.

Same with /r/atheism, a lot of their content can be labeled hate speech under US law. (IANAL)

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#44

Post by timdorr »

zotz wrote: post #32

I've been banned from posting articles on some larger subreddits some time ago. My political, economic and historical opinions aren't welcome for some reason. My point? Reddit began banning political opinion long before it banned kiddie porn. Reddit's admins don't give a damn about freedom of speech and opinion.

When you're banned from a subreddit, that's the decision of the moderators of that subreddit, not the administration of the site. You're blaming the wrong people.

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#45

Post by kijin »

throwawaymar2 wrote: post #2

I confused about why he thinks it ironic that Nabakov is banned... I mean, it got grandfathered in when child porn laws were written, somehow, but it is certainly fiction about a paedophile, right? Anything that bans other kiddie-fiddler fiction while allowing _Lolita_ is quite obviously inconsistent, and those in favor of this inconsistency probably ought to examine why they like _Lolita_.

Some people, myself included, object to banning "kiddie-fiddler fiction", no matter how disgusting it is. The law should not make judgments of literary quality, and literary quality is the only grounds for treating Lolita differently from some (but perhaps not all) of the amateur stuff.

Besides, no actual child was abused in the production of these works, unlike with films and pictures with actual underage models; and potential harm to future children is a rather shaky basis to justify flushing the First Amendment down the drain. That's the argument that ACLU's Nadine Strossen used two decades ago against censorship of (non-child) pornography. I see no reason why the same argument won't apply to child pornographic literature.

But private websites are a different matter, and there's nothing wrong with a moderator who chooses whether or not to discriminate on the basis of perceived literary quality on his or her own site. Many forums ban discussions about religion and politics altogether, but that doesn't infringe anybody's Constitutional rights.

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#46

Post by zotz »

blantonl wrote: post #35
zotz wrote: post #32

I've been banned from posting articles on some larger subreddits some time ago. My political, economic and historical opinions aren't welcome for some reason. My point? Reddit began banning political opinion long before it banned kiddie porn. Reddit's admins don't give a damn about freedom of speech and opinion.

subreddits are moderated by folks who are like-minded individuals that participate in the subreddit. It seems more likely that you were moderated by those subreddit admins, not the Reddit administration. Furthermore, Reddit is a private organization, and they don't have to give a damn about freedom of speech.

I've been told, by a drunken reddit admin in a late night talk, that no one likes my opinions and I should just go away. True to form, callow youth are generally the most sure of their own views while also being sure that everyone else is wrong.

> Reddit is a private organization, and they don't have to give a damn about freedom of speech.

Agreed. They should stop acting like they care when they don't.

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#47

Post by showerst »

kijin wrote: post #30
showerst wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember, slippery slope is a fallacy. I think the admins are sending the right message - This subject is blanket banned because it's too hard to sort out the shades of gray, and it brings a unique risk to the community that other things (drugs, racism, etc) just don't. I agree that they'll be playing 'ban the sub' whack a mole, but that will happen to any UGC site of scale, the important thing is (ironically) not to…

> a false fallacy The philosophy degree in me screams that there's something wrong with that phrase.

That's what I learned it as years ago, in hindsight it is an odd phrase.

Wiki calls them 'Conditional or questionable fallacies', which is a bit less punchy. Do you have a better name?

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#48

Post by tptacek »

zotz wrote: post #39
pilif wrote: post #25

While I agree that the world is better off without forums where people can post their child porn or similar ilk, this policy change in reddit shows that there's in inherent issue with centralized platforms. Back when there was usenet, everybody could post what ever they wanted (some news servers might not have carried the group, but there was no policing the source). Same with blogs: You wanted to post content the ma…

> Back when there was usenet NNTP is still alive. : )

This shit killed Usenet. Not just child porn, but that and a lot of things like it.

(I ran a Freenix-competitive server in the '90s and hacked on INN).

(Disclosure: it's sad it took Reddit this long to apply this rule, and more than a little repulsive to see people up in arms about it.)

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#49

Post by Anderkent »

Fukkireta wrote: post #37
alecco wrote: post #12

Reddit is changing. It's currently in a renewed and stronger Eternal September. Bastion subreddits like /r/AskScience and /r/Truereddit are reduced to junk and fads. The hope for the group of moderated subreddits (Republic of Reddit) didn't really take off, it's just a handful of submitters. The top voted comments on threads about censorship are mostly 1 to 3 months old users. And now reddit (had to) surrender to a d…

You can't use a slippery slope argument that begins with child pornography in this situation without supporting child pornography. I'm not saying this to try and discredit your argument by association, it's simply a consequence of trying to hold freedom of speech so utterly sacrosanct that you can't breach it under any circumstances. Yes, it would be easier to not take a stance on things like this, because then we co…

But you can use a slippery slope argument that begins with 'you can post whatever is legally allowed', and trends towards 'you cannot post anything that the majority finds disturbing'. Which is what is happening here - no one argues for allowing already illegal content.

Re: Reddit takes a new direction

#50

Post by lambda »

zotz wrote: post #32

I've been banned from posting articles on some larger subreddits some time ago. My political, economic and historical opinions aren't welcome for some reason. My point? Reddit began banning political opinion long before it banned kiddie porn. Reddit's admins don't give a damn about freedom of speech and opinion.

There is a difference between subreddit admins banning you from a particular subreddit, and Reddit admins banning entire subreddits. Each subreddit is administered by different admins, and each subreddit may have different policies for what is acceptable content or not.

The difference here is that now Reddit has banned subreddits for encouraging people to post "creepy," though not necessarily illegal, content. It's always been the case that subreddit admins could ban you for whatever they wanted.

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