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Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

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Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#81

Post by wholinator2 »

eternalban wrote: post #71
theaiquestion wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~15/20ug is the dose an experienced person would percievably be able to notice, so microdosing is below this. 75ug is the lower end of the recreational scale. I first ever started with ~50ug (which honestly I'd recommend for beginners) and I had antidepressents in my system so it's effect is dulled a bit - and that was a giggly, eyes-full-of-wonder, oversaturated, and slight motion inpainting, wonderful experience. T…

> ~50ug (which honestly I'd recommend for beginners) So says the guy who took LSD while on antidepressents. > EDIT: Sidenote, safety first friends. possibly I'm high but I find this rather amusing. Enjoy but don't play doctor until you get your degree.

As far as i understand, psylocin and LSD have never been shown to be dangerous, in combination with any drug with possible exception to MAOI _maybe_. There are interactions that make it less intense and interactions that make it more intense. The only real danger is that you'll do something bad while in the state, not that the state will actually harm you.

So it's perfectly reasonable for someone to take a low dose of LSD while on antidepressants. The worst I've ever heard of occurring is that you just won't feel it at all. It's a targeted agonist of multiple serotonin receptors, i don't believe it actually releases any large flood of serotonin. Something like MDMA though _is_ very dangerous to take with SSRIs due to serotonin syndrome.

I've known many people to do psychedelics while on antidepressants and non of them have ever approached the levels of danger or concern that I've seen for people doing MDMA while not on anything else. The traditional psychedelics (LSD, shrooms) are remarkably safe and there's no reason to act like this person is being dumb or disingenuous for doing them in their circumstance. If you have research to the contrary I'd certainly welcome the opportunity to learn

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#82

Post by wholinator2 »

phil-m wrote: post #75
theaiquestion wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~15/20ug is the dose an experienced person would percievably be able to notice, so microdosing is below this. 75ug is the lower end of the recreational scale. I first ever started with ~50ug (which honestly I'd recommend for beginners) and I had antidepressents in my system so it's effect is dulled a bit - and that was a giggly, eyes-full-of-wonder, oversaturated, and slight motion inpainting, wonderful experience. T…

Even 15/20ug is quite a bit, which I would sometimes consider a minidose (depending on the setting). I detect even down to 5-7ug LSD that I'm dosed (though I'm quite experienced with all kinds of dosages). 75ug is definitely tripping-level. No way someone couldn't detect that they are dosed, just the contrast/visual-enhancing qualities alone should be enough to detect that, maybe even some LSD-typical distortions can…

Just a question but are you able to accurately measure down to 5-7ug to know that's how much you're testing? As I'm familiar with, tabs and other dosing with exception to volumetric are well known for large discrepancies in reported vs actual dose

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#83

Post by wholinator2 »

RosanaAnaDana wrote: post #74
quchen wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My pupils are fine at that dose. It's more subtle, it's the way I start looking at things (clouds, bark, grass, fur, my own hand) or zoning out while talking to someone. FWIW I never went above 100ug, nor do I feel like I want or need to. It gets quite intense once you learn how to let it.

Im guessing you aren't injecting it

Are you? Getting access to liquid LSD and the means to IM or IV it are certainly not typical, or anywhere near the prevalence of access to the oral form

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#84

Post by theaiquestion »

wholinator2 wrote: post #81
eternalban wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ~50ug (which honestly I'd recommend for beginners) So says the guy who took LSD while on antidepressents. > EDIT: Sidenote, safety first friends. possibly I'm high but I find this rather amusing. Enjoy but don't play doctor until you get your degree.

As far as i understand, psylocin and LSD have never been shown to be dangerous, in combination with any drug with possible exception to MAOI _maybe_. There are interactions that make it less intense and interactions that make it more intense. The only real danger is that you'll do something bad while in the state, not that the state will actually harm you. So it's perfectly reasonable for someone to take a low dose o…

I actually disagree somewhat.

So I likely overdid one particular month....

But I have (likely) permanent HPPD - particularly when I take my adhd meds I can get some motion inpainting, geometry visuals, and turning off the lights at night looks like a "shower of colors", and also white looks simultaneously red/blue/green/purple (the color you see after looking at a really bright light and looking away).

It's not currently causing issues for me but it is a real thing. MRI shows no abnormalities, eye exam also shows nothing odd. The visuals are almost identical to light lsd visuals. I'm 100% aware they aren't "real", none of my doctor's believe it's psychosis.

I'm also 100% convinced that chronic psychedelic and possibly chronic marijuana usage contributes to schizophrenia.

And I'm certain you can get real PTSD from a bad trip.

I have no idea what extent the medication combo did, but with or without antidepressents, I don't want to say it's "safe". I'm not saying it's dangerous, but I don't think it's harmless.

Also smoking marijuana with lsd makes it like 10x more intense, and I have a feeling that also has a chance at shifting the harm potential.

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#85

Post by theaiquestion »

eternalban wrote: post #71
theaiquestion wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~15/20ug is the dose an experienced person would percievably be able to notice, so microdosing is below this. 75ug is the lower end of the recreational scale. I first ever started with ~50ug (which honestly I'd recommend for beginners) and I had antidepressents in my system so it's effect is dulled a bit - and that was a giggly, eyes-full-of-wonder, oversaturated, and slight motion inpainting, wonderful experience. T…

> ~50ug (which honestly I'd recommend for beginners) So says the guy who took LSD while on antidepressents. > EDIT: Sidenote, safety first friends. possibly I'm high but I find this rather amusing. Enjoy but don't play doctor until you get your degree.

> possibly I'm high but I find this rather amusing. Enjoy but don't play doctor until you get your degree.

I'm not saying it's safe. In fact I think there's significant potential for harm from careless use of psychs, and I can't recommend it from a safety perspective.

That being said, if you were going to use it - and this goes for any drug - you MUST test it. You cannot OD on 4 tabs of LSD. If it's actually 2C-B (it's half the price) then you could die.

--

If you're on the fence - don't take it.

If you were going to anyway - take it in a way that minimizes harm.

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#86

Post by theaiquestion »

wholinator2 wrote: post #82
phil-m wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even 15/20ug is quite a bit, which I would sometimes consider a minidose (depending on the setting). I detect even down to 5-7ug LSD that I'm dosed (though I'm quite experienced with all kinds of dosages). 75ug is definitely tripping-level. No way someone couldn't detect that they are dosed, just the contrast/visual-enhancing qualities alone should be enough to detect that, maybe even some LSD-typical distortions can…

Just a question but are you able to accurately measure down to 5-7ug to know that's how much you're testing? As I'm familiar with, tabs and other dosing with exception to volumetric are well known for large discrepancies in reported vs actual dose

The most accurate method is to have it in liquid form and dose that way.

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#87

Post by dr_dshiv »

“Computational modelling revealed that the most pronounced effect of LSD was the enhancement of the reward learning rate. The punishment learning rate was also elevated. Stimulus stickiness was decreased by LSD, reflecting heightened exploration. Reinforcement sensitivity differed by phase.

Conclusions

Increased RL rates suggest LSD induced a state of heightened plasticity.”

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#88

Post by frozenwind »

phil-m wrote: post #75
theaiquestion wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

~15/20ug is the dose an experienced person would percievably be able to notice, so microdosing is below this. 75ug is the lower end of the recreational scale. I first ever started with ~50ug (which honestly I'd recommend for beginners) and I had antidepressents in my system so it's effect is dulled a bit - and that was a giggly, eyes-full-of-wonder, oversaturated, and slight motion inpainting, wonderful experience. T…

Even 15/20ug is quite a bit, which I would sometimes consider a minidose (depending on the setting). I detect even down to 5-7ug LSD that I'm dosed (though I'm quite experienced with all kinds of dosages). 75ug is definitely tripping-level. No way someone couldn't detect that they are dosed, just the contrast/visual-enhancing qualities alone should be enough to detect that, maybe even some LSD-typical distortions can…

Sorry but I have to ask. In what kinds of contexts did you become experienced? Is LSD in at least a gray area anywhere on earth? The country I come from that is an illegal drug, but it being a neuroplasticity enhancer is what attracted my attention. I've also read about microdosing which can enhance focus or creativity. Can it be prescribed for treating depression or other mental deficits or the approvals are not at that stage yet?

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#89

Post by sheepscreek »

quchen wrote: post #56
yakubin wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm pretty sure anyone on earth would know whether or not they were on 75 micrograms of LSD I wouldn’t. I have no idea how strong the effects of LSD are supposed to be based on a dose. I suspect only people who have taken LSD know really.

Assuming you have almost no prior knowledge about LSD, you might not be sure whether you're in the control group or not if you were actually given the placebo . If you received the LSD instead: 75ug is a very noticeable dose, I assure you you would have zero doubt whether you were in the control group or not. In my case (80kg, male, slender/muscular), 75ug is the highest dose I can still, with significant and perpetu…

Thanks for explaining this. Perhaps 75ug in one group and 25ug in the other would have been a better test.

Blows my mind to think - the design of an experiment can have a huge impact on the outcome. I guess, clinical trials are just as much an art as they are a science.

Re: Effect of LSD on reinforcement learning in humans (2022)

#90

Post by eternalban »

theaiquestion wrote: post #85
eternalban wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ~50ug (which honestly I'd recommend for beginners) So says the guy who took LSD while on antidepressents. > EDIT: Sidenote, safety first friends. possibly I'm high but I find this rather amusing. Enjoy but don't play doctor until you get your degree.

> possibly I'm high but I find this rather amusing. Enjoy but don't play doctor until you get your degree. I'm not saying it's safe. In fact I think there's significant potential for harm from careless use of psychs, and I can't recommend it from a safety perspective. That being said, if you were going to use it - and this goes for any drug - you MUST test it. You cannot OD on 4 tabs of LSD. If it's actually 2C-B (it…

hey, it was and is all super friendly.

and I am not saying it is unsafe. (have no idea, never partook. naturally exhibited behavior that apparently the "initiated" will interpret as micro-cruising. just this very day was attentively looking at bark, but thankfully no one caught me in the act.)

so can we agree as hackernews friends that you exhibited questionable judgement (all ok, who is perfect) and you shouldn't go around giving advice on taking mind altering chemicals?

"lsd is great, you should try it" is fine. "take this much and if you're on this is fine. i survived" is not, imho.

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