Live data from Hacker News

The Messy Page Or: why I don't like greenfield projects

registerspill.thorstenball.com

51–60 of 87 posts

Re: The Messy Page Or: why I don't like greenfield projects

#51
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does make life so much easier. My whole stack is Elixir, Postgres, a bit of Vanilla JS, Tailwind (which isn’t strictly needed but I love it), and libvips (we do lots of stuff with images). Esbuild is in the mix for assets but no npm! And no web API!

Same stack here, I just use Stimulus instead of Vanilla JS because it pairs well with Live View, it is sane and simple. Put everything in a container, stick it in a dedicated server at Hetzner, and Bob's your uncle.

I gotta look into Hetzner. Their servers are in the EU no? Or are they viable for an NA app? I know I can google this stuff but just interested in your high level experience since you have the same stack.

Re: The Messy Page Or: why I don't like greenfield projects

#52
> Maybe that’s why I like debugging so much.

I hate debugging.

Two big programming barriers I noticed as a kid were: (1) walls of complexity, and (2) debugging interruptions that took lots of time and ruined momentum.

I learned how and when to avert both barriers. And I love greenfield, partly because I can apply what I've learned about both. (And partly because I like working creatively, and with a holistic understanding of the problem domain and approach.)

It's great that there are people who dislike greenfield and love well-defined debugging tasks. I can trade them my brussels sprouts, for their chocolate cake.

Re: The Messy Page Or: why I don't like greenfield projects

#53
I had the opposite experience. I worked at companies in the past that had legacy codebases that were strung together by inexperienced programmers years ago. This meant:

- The code was basically just spaghetti with differing standards and architectures depending what area you were in. Making even the most simple changes or basic features would often break something else in unexpected ways.

- There were never any tests, and in one company's case, they even had a no comments policy "because the code changed often and they didn't want to maintain the comments' accuracy".

- Said companies did not have the money (or want to spend it) in rewriting any significant portion of the apps, despite them being on years ago abandoned frameworks.

- In one case, this meant we had to patch a web framework and maintain it ourselves because of security vulnerabilities.

I realize maybe the author worked on established but not-so-bad projects, but working on a greenfield is imo the far better experience. You can actually push for standards, create impactful features in a timely manner, and do refactors without fear that 20 other things are going to break because the architecture is fresh in your mind, documented and you have up-to-date regression tests.

The author also seems to primarily be afraid they'll do something sub-optimally and have to delete code. I actually love deleting code. Some of the most satisfying refactors I've done involve cutting down on complexity and removing portions of code. I get that you don't want to waste effort, but I don't think it's a healthy attitude to have toward your code if you get negative emotions over finding better solutions.

Re: The Messy Page Or: why I don't like greenfield projects

#54
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same stack here, I just use Stimulus instead of Vanilla JS because it pairs well with Live View, it is sane and simple. Put everything in a container, stick it in a dedicated server at Hetzner, and Bob's your uncle.

I gotta look into Hetzner. Their servers are in the EU no? Or are they viable for an NA app? I know I can google this stuff but just interested in your high level experience since you have the same stack.

They're German but AFAIK they recently opened a datacenter in the US East and one in US West. They're much cheaper than the other offerings.

I pay €35/mo for a 32GB RAM, 8-core, 2x SSD dedicated server with unlimited traffic. Elixir flies on that.

Re: The Messy Page Or: why I don't like greenfield projects

#55
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gotta look into Hetzner. Their servers are in the EU no? Or are they viable for an NA app? I know I can google this stuff but just interested in your high level experience since you have the same stack.

They're German but AFAIK they recently opened a datacenter in the US East and one in US West. They're much cheaper than the other offerings. I pay €35/mo for a 32GB RAM, 8-core, 2x SSD dedicated server with unlimited traffic. Elixir flies on that.

Awesome, thanks for the info!

Re: The Messy Page Or: why I don't like greenfield projects

#57
post #31

Honestly, I think this kind of discomfort with a blank page is an excellent thing to have on the team with a greenfield project. One of the ways greenfields go wrong is confident people bringing too much to them. They're sure that features X, Y, and Z are vital. They're sure that the best technical approach means architecture A with framework B and library C. So they jump in and build things, ignoring the lack of pro…

I think it depends on how far that discomfort goes.

If everyone just knows, that you probably have to redo things, it looks completely healthy to me. But if it paralysis the team, because nobody dares to start something, because nobody wants to waste work so everything has to be thought until the end before starting to develop something, well, then the discomfort might be too much.

Re: The Messy Page Or: why I don't like greenfield projects

#59
It depends on your personality.

Some people are “serial starters”. They have enormous creative fire, feel a burning need to create something new, and once it starts taking form and people start using it, they get bored and move on.

Others are better finishers. They will patiently build out the core until all the required bells and whistles and niceties are there.

It’s very rare to someone good at both, such as Linus Torvalds. Maybe that is a third category, someone who starts a few great things and sticks with them for life?

Re: The Messy Page Or: why I don't like greenfield projects

#60
> There are too many options. Too many tools to chose and decisions to be made. All of the code has to be written, including the boilerplate and the boring stuff.

I disagree a bit here. Sure, there are hundreds (thousands?) of databases out there. However, once you add your business requirements, and second+ order considerations (e.g. is this database battle tested in production? is it supported? is it supported in our company specifically?) the choices narrow down dramatically.

In fact I dare say that in most greenfield projects you can probably narrow most tech choices to less than a handful.

Post reply on HN