Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you’re gonna say you have to pay for reviews, it might be a bad precedent that might establish “professional reviewers” whose main job becomes this. Already reviewing papers is become a stupidly important criteria in green card applications and you see a huge deluge of postdocs emailing editors requesting papers to review (though the top journals will never give a manuscript to a postdoc).
No, what I am saying is that proper reviews are expensive, and that cost should be made explicit. How that should be done, I don't know. Giving prestige to reviews is difficult, given that reviews are anonymous. Personally, I feel reviews should be public and non-anonymous, just like the paper is. If the argument against this is that scientists are so petty that they will hold a negative review against you, well. Eve…
Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
101–110 of 254 posts
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
Consider you are another researcher (not the one who has just published). You may want to keep up to date with your field. This is good to do and it helps foster new ideas for now and for future proposals. There will be a selection of journals that are relevant to you and they will publish work that, generally, will be tiered by either the scope or impact of the journal. Journal A publishes a lot of papers you find v…
Maybe I am wrong here, but shouldn't the quality metric be whether it acts as a basis for practical applications? As far as I understand, research is supposed to give theoretical answers and frameworks. X works like this. Y doesn't work like that. This knowledge should then be applied to the real world and will be prooved wrong or right. Maybe a silly thought, but I suppose pre 1800 science didn't have to pay such fe…
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#103The always entertaining question of do you pay for value or cost
The "value" here is a racket though, right? The publishing companies do not create anything of value, they hold a resource (prestige) that they do nothing to improve, transform or grow. Academies do all that labour for free, and the publishers rent-seek on that free labour and run a racket ("publish here or else"). It's a feudal setup: a king controls the land but does nothing with it. The serfs do all the labour and…
That's absolutely untrue. A journals prestige is not a given. It has to be maintained and I know of at a couple journals that have fallen out of favor.
The editorial board makes decisions on which papers to publish, and it's that track record that maintains the level of prestige. They also have to get peer reviewers (nobody will waste their time reviewing for a no-name journal) of a certain caliber to review.
it better to think of the journals as more similar to a luxury good - the value is not in the work done or how much it costs, but the perceived value of other people.
That has real value, and it's clearly apparent people are willing to pay for it.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#104Why do so many commenters on HN always sound so confident, yet none of them work in publishing? First off, if the only publisher you have a problem with is Elsevier, you have already shown your hand. A half dozen other publishers are more expensive, but you can only name Elsevier. That means you're just repeating a meme that started on forums like this one. So take a moment and ask yourself why any of these publisher…
> Why do so many commenters on HN always sound so confident, yet none of them work in publishing? Because people can have opinions on industries they don’t work in? I don’t work in hospitality, and I have never cooked for a living. I can still confidently tell you when my food is burnt. A chef then can crawl out of the kitchen and explain the complicated process which resulted in me getting burnt food and I won’t car…
Your example of "I can tell when my food is burnt" is a poor one. Can you tell a quality scientific paper? Do you know what's required to get tenure? To get scientific funding? All of those are relevant as to why the scientific publishing system works as it does today. If you don't know those things, then you don't know how to solve the problem.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, what I am saying is that proper reviews are expensive, and that cost should be made explicit. How that should be done, I don't know. Giving prestige to reviews is difficult, given that reviews are anonymous. Personally, I feel reviews should be public and non-anonymous, just like the paper is. If the argument against this is that scientists are so petty that they will hold a negative review against you, well. Eve…
Hah, the power dynamics involved will be brutal with non-anonymous review. You have new phd students reviewing papers submitted by tenured profs with decades of experience and connections and ability to impact their careers. People will be people and so on.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#106Why do so many commenters on HN always sound so confident, yet none of them work in publishing? First off, if the only publisher you have a problem with is Elsevier, you have already shown your hand. A half dozen other publishers are more expensive, but you can only name Elsevier. That means you're just repeating a meme that started on forums like this one. So take a moment and ask yourself why any of these publisher…
- Do you suppose these kinds of quasi-natural monopolies ought to be regulated? - If it is about prestige as you assert, how would you go around changing this dependence in academia (not a trap; genuinely interested)?
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#107Why do so many commenters on HN always sound so confident, yet none of them work in publishing? First off, if the only publisher you have a problem with is Elsevier, you have already shown your hand. A half dozen other publishers are more expensive, but you can only name Elsevier. That means you're just repeating a meme that started on forums like this one. So take a moment and ask yourself why any of these publisher…
You're saying academic prestige is a Veblen good, like a handbag? Are you sure?
It's not exactly the same as Veblen goods because what the academic institution is paying for is access to journals. But they need to pay for these expensive journals because they're prestigious, and they need the prestige to decide who gets the money/job, and the prestigious journals know this so they mark up the price.
If prestige wasn't what they were paying for, law of supply and demand (and healthy competition - there are many competitors in the market) would make the price dirt cheap. But it's the opposite.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
The big difference here is that prestige has nothing to do with cost, unlike your Louis Voutton comparison. Prestige is entirely based on the perception of the journals among scientists and on the prestige of the papers themselves that are published in them. And the scientists individually don't have a choice unless they are closer to the end of their career. Intentionally publishing in less prestigious journals will…
> The big difference here is that prestige has nothing to do with cost, unlike your Louis Voutton comparison. Yep, usually it's the opposite. You pay more money to get published through easy to get into conferences. If you're not in academia or don't have some membership, you pay way more to get into conferences. You pay thousands more to get published in low quality open access journals because your paper is not goo…
Let's rephrase. No one who doesn't get the article for free through the university library can afford to read it.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why do so many commenters on HN always sound so confident, yet none of them work in publishing? Because people can have opinions on industries they don’t work in? I don’t work in hospitality, and I have never cooked for a living. I can still confidently tell you when my food is burnt. A chef then can crawl out of the kitchen and explain the complicated process which resulted in me getting burnt food and I won’t car…
Nothing wrong with having an opinion, but having a strong opinion ("the solution is so obvious, i can solve this in 5 minutes") about an industry of which you known nothing of the inner workings come across as rather ignorant. Your example of "I can tell when my food is burnt" is a poor one. Can you tell a quality scientific paper? Do you know what's required to get tenure? To get scientific funding? All of those are…
Given the replication crisis, maybe scientific publishing as it works today also can't tell quality.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#110Why do so many commenters on HN always sound so confident, yet none of them work in publishing? First off, if the only publisher you have a problem with is Elsevier, you have already shown your hand. A half dozen other publishers are more expensive, but you can only name Elsevier. That means you're just repeating a meme that started on forums like this one. So take a moment and ask yourself why any of these publisher…
Where does the prestige come from? The editors of the journal, recognizing that they are pretty much solely responsible for the rigor/quality of the content (well, plus the authors of course), believe they can take their prestige with them.
Are they wrong? I'm not sure. If so, why?
Getting into it -- which I agree requires some knowledge of the actual business and market -- I think will lead you to the conclusion that it's not that nothing will change until "research no longer depends on prestige". The difficulty in changing things with individual walk-outs is real, but it's more about nothing will change until the entire economics of how the publishing system is funded changes.
The University of California's battle with Elsevier was more market-shaking than an individual journal editorial board walk-out. The UC did eventually go back to Elsevier. I think they called Elsevier's bluff though. They went two years without an Elsevier contract, and my guess is that Elsevier was worried that the longer they went without it, the more negotiating power they'd have, rather than the more desperation. They wound up with a contract that provided much more open access than ever before, at similar prices to what they had previously been paying for much less open access.
https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/ucs-deal-elsevie...
The basic mismatch is that much (true, not all) of the value is provided by government and university funding (for the salaries of the faculty who do the research, write the articles, serve on the editorial board or referee articles (unpaid by the journals)) -- but the massive profits are all captured by the publisher (who, yes, provide some of the value). While paywalling the product from the citizens of the government who pay for much of it, or residents of the world that the authors who do the research would be happy to share it with. This is a weird situation, and it's not to me obvious that "relying on prestige" requires it to continue like this. But it's an economic/market problem, that will require major changes to the economic arrangements to change, and which the publishers of course won't cooperate with changing, they'll fight it tooth and nail. The UC Elsevier deal may be one model.
From the UC press release:
> We refer to these agreements as transformative open access agreements because they convert subscription payments into payments for open access publishing (with reading provided for free). It is a new approach we helped develop with other leading institutions a few years ago, in large part through the OA2020 initiative.
Elsevier trying to raise prices for publishing (at least for those not covered by blanket contracts from institutions with more negotiating power, like UC) is their attempt to preserve their super-profits against this attempt at changing the market. It's an economic battle, I don't think it's outcome is certain just based on the nature of "prestige" in academic careers.
I gather you do work in publishing? But don't want to reveal how? At a major academic publisher? I don't work in publishing, but do work in librarianship, although I don't work in acquisitions at a university, the vicinity gives me some view of the market and industry. Of course, the interests of librarians and those of commercial academic publishers currently seem to be opposed, or perceived as opposed.