EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones • Hacker News Board

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#251

Post by viraptor » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:00 PM UTC

christophilus wrote: post #228

crote wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law explicitly states that it has to be reviewed every couple of years to determine whether USB-C it is still the best choice, or there has been sufficient technological progress to warrant a switch to a newer standard. The fear for a "lock-in" is completely unfounded, as the EU previously quasi-mandated Micro USB and switching to USB-C was no issue whatsoever. Besides, nothing is stopping manufacturers from incl…

But if the whole world adopted this kind of regulatory stance, there would be much less incentive to invent that better cable because you now have huge regulatory bodies that may block its adoption and thus mean most of that work was money and time wasted. This kind of thing may tilt the risk / reward of research towards the riskier end of the spectrum. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing— just that it’s not without cons…

It's not the regulatory bodies deciding. It's the industry agreeing on when to move on. If they co-operate and design the new version in the open, there's no risk of wasted time. If they don't... it's a good lesson I guess.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#252

Post by nonethewiser » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:01 PM UTC

stephc_int13 wrote: post #205

taf2 wrote: post #118

What happens when there is a better USB-C plug - isn't there a concern that locking into the current standard means in 50 years the EU is still stuck. I imagine we're in uncharted territory given in less then my lifetime USB was invented and has gone through at least 14 iterations e.g. it's been changing very fast. Unfortunately I fear even asking this question probably angers some, but I think it's an interesting qu…

Standards are good for everyone, even when very old and seemingly outdated. Being "locked" on a a few not awful standard connectors is a good thing. The Edison screw bulb is very simple, reliable, still used today even if I am sure that many companies would have invented more sophisticated standards over the years, I am glad they did not. I still use audio jack connectors as much as possible, and I think that the wor…

A standard on the 3.5 mm charger would have gated massive leaps like data transfers and lithium ion batteries.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#253

Post by Jochim » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:01 PM UTC

MichaelZuo wrote: post #204

bantunes wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The early 2000s were a mess with company-specific cables and USB was forced upon them and made things much simpler, Apple is just the last holdout. Forcing 3rd-party manufacturers to buy chips from them for their devices to work with Apple phones feels like the real protection racket to me.

The parent has a point, the regulation is forcing a slightly smaller battery, slightly less durable connector, much more expensive repairs when the port stem breaks, etc. For devices that doesn't need the extra capabilities.

People keep repeating this but how frequently do USB C ports actually break?

Anecdotally, I had horrendous issues with mini USB but I've never had a micro USB or USB C port break. I'm not particularly gentle with them either, I've had the female end come out of the cable boot/snap off and the cable stop working due to strain on the boot.

I don't know anyone who has experienced this personally and I can't recall seeing any anecdotes of it actually occurring in the HN threads where it's brought up.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#254

Post by crote » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:02 PM UTC

nickpp wrote: post #145

taf2 wrote: post #118

What happens when there is a better USB-C plug - isn't there a concern that locking into the current standard means in 50 years the EU is still stuck. I imagine we're in uncharted territory given in less then my lifetime USB was invented and has gone through at least 14 iterations e.g. it's been changing very fast. Unfortunately I fear even asking this question probably angers some, but I think it's an interesting qu…

If the new plug comes from a big company (like Apple) then maybe they have the time, money and lawyers to push it through the bureaucratic layers a couple of years until maybe it gets approved. However, there is very little chance for that to happen now, considering most of innovation comes from small startups who don't have the resources or disposition to research something that is illegal to put on the market. So w…

> most of innovation comes from small startups

Right, just like how USB-C was invented by small startups like AMD, Intel, Apple, and Google. Before standardization the only "innovation" we were seeing was how many obscure connector shapes people could come up, all using the same voltages and currents.

> something that is illegal to put on the market

It is not. You can 100% put something on the market which has both your MagicConnector 3000 and USB-C.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#255

Post by viraptor » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:02 PM UTC

rkagerer wrote: post #240

crote wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law explicitly states that it has to be reviewed every couple of years to determine whether USB-C it is still the best choice, or there has been sufficient technological progress to warrant a switch to a newer standard. The fear for a "lock-in" is completely unfounded, as the EU previously quasi-mandated Micro USB and switching to USB-C was no issue whatsoever. Besides, nothing is stopping manufacturers from incl…

But if enough governments of the world mandate one technology... no innovator will have the appetite to market something better (whether that be Apple or a startup).

It's good that no government mandates one specific technology then. This regulation is essentially "the industry needs to agree on one approach or else" - when there's need to change, they can re-evaluate.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#256

Post by McDyver » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:03 PM UTC

christophilus wrote: post #228

crote wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law explicitly states that it has to be reviewed every couple of years to determine whether USB-C it is still the best choice, or there has been sufficient technological progress to warrant a switch to a newer standard. The fear for a "lock-in" is completely unfounded, as the EU previously quasi-mandated Micro USB and switching to USB-C was no issue whatsoever. Besides, nothing is stopping manufacturers from incl…

But if the whole world adopted this kind of regulatory stance, there would be much less incentive to invent that better cable because you now have huge regulatory bodies that may block its adoption and thus mean most of that work was money and time wasted. This kind of thing may tilt the risk / reward of research towards the riskier end of the spectrum. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing— just that it’s not without cons…

I feel this argument is like saying there's no point in developing free and open software because there are already other pieces of software that were adopted, and are de facto standard.

In my opinion, this actually promotes the development of technology to be shared for the benefit of everyone, not just to help with vendor lock-in.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#257

Post by sitkack » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:03 PM UTC

USB-C could have used the lightening but we can thank Apple for that.

USB should have never existed, it was a scam by Intel (and Microsoft) to put the PC at the center of everything. In a non-dumb world, we would be using Firewire over something like a lightening connector. Jobs was too greedy with Firewire for it to be successful.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#258

Post by least » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:03 PM UTC

JeremyNT wrote: post #226

blurrybird wrote: post #109

As somebody who last night got an Apple stem out of their daughter's lightning port using a SIM card ejector tool, I'm torn. You can't do that (safely) with USB-C because of the female plug design.

Is this something that happens often for iPhones? I've never seen anything like it with USBC in my non-Apple household. Perhaps the "benefit" you describe is only relevant because the proprietary Apple cable design is so poor?

> Perhaps the "benefit" you describe is only relevant because the proprietary Apple cable design is so poor?

No, the lightning connector's design is actually less prone to snapping than USB type c. Whether or not that it is an advantage is subjective, given that cables are inexpensive and the devices they're attached to generally are not.

In my opinion lightning is a vastly superior connector to USB-C. It's easier to insert and it's more robust and doesn't present issue if you do need to remove a snapped connector as was mentioned in the parent comment.

In an ideal world, Apple handed off the lightning connector off to the USB consortium and that turned into the type c connector. I don't know if there are physical limitations that would ultimately limit lightning, which has only ever gone as high as USB 3 speeds, but as far as using it on devices that I'm plugging and unplugging, it's much nicer.

As it is in the real world, it's a dead end and I am eagerly waiting to get rid of lightning so I can use one connector for all my portable devices.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#259

Post by nonethewiser » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:04 PM UTC

rocketbop wrote: post #168

epolanski wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The regulations get updated, you aren't stuck on usb-c. What EU wants to avoid is Apple giving "unfair" advantages to their own chargers (which could either come from Apple making better chargers or artificially slowing third party ones) defeating the purpose of having less electronic waste.

> The regulations get updated, you aren't stuck on usb-c. Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces, because they aren't releasable in Europe. I suppose such products might get released first in the US, but which large tech company if going to ignore the EU market when releasing important products?

> Isn't there a chicken and egg problem there - no one will release products with new power interfaces, because they aren't releasable in Europe.

Yes - seems plainly obvious to me.

What’s more, the more countries to implement this makes it more unlikely to see different chargers. Maybe a better charger is released in the US. Now what if the US bans it? Are they going to innovate for the Brazilian market? The regulation scales very poorly.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#260

Post by crote » Sun, May 07, 2023, 1:05 PM UTC

willis936 wrote: post #57

devinprater wrote: post #42

Lol and a lot of Apple's charging cables are Lightning to USB C now. I can't wait to get a USB C iPhone. All my stuff is USB C, from my Braille display to my game controllers. It'll make things so much easier to only need one kind of cable for everything.

I learned about an interesting corner case last week: devices that use USB-C physical connectors but have USB 2.0 PHY. You can get away with a much longer cable at that lower Baud rate, but that cable likely won't work for most USB-C devices.

Some manufacturers have even introduced charging-only cables which don't even have the USB 2.0 wires. This isn't allowed by the specs, but that doesn't seem to be stopping anyone.