Earlier quoted context omitted.
They also manage the review process (screen papers, find reviewers, communicate with authors and reviewers), make sure that papers are accessible long-term (decades to centuries), typeset manuscripts, print paper issues, and several other tasks. But yes, reviewers are not paid. A half-decent review can easily take 3-4 hours, and a typical paper gets 2-3 reviews, so something like 8-12 hours of PhD-level labor which a…
The only thing elsevier manages is their website. The review process is managed by academics who also work for free. Typesetting is done by authors. Paper printing is basically extinct.
Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
21–30 of 254 posts
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
They also manage the review process (screen papers, find reviewers, communicate with authors and reviewers), make sure that papers are accessible long-term (decades to centuries), typeset manuscripts, print paper issues, and several other tasks. But yes, reviewers are not paid. A half-decent review can easily take 3-4 hours, and a typical paper gets 2-3 reviews, so something like 8-12 hours of PhD-level labor which a…
The only thing elsevier manages is their website. The review process is managed by academics who also work for free. Typesetting is done by authors. Paper printing is basically extinct.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
The "value" here is a racket though, right? The publishing companies do not create anything of value, they hold a resource (prestige) that they do nothing to improve, transform or grow. Academies do all that labour for free, and the publishers rent-seek on that free labour and run a racket ("publish here or else"). It's a feudal setup: a king controls the land but does nothing with it. The serfs do all the labour and…
> It's a feudal setup: Yes it is, but why hasnt it changed in the past 30 years? Because the serfs (academics) cannot agree on a replacement ruler. It's not like there arent many good open access publishers. But there aren't many open 'prestige givers'
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#24Curious what is the leading open source system being used for publication of journals where academics are trying to get out of such exploitative practices? Or is it a collection of bespoke setups with no clear leader?
If I submit a grant application and I have five papers in Nature, I will get the job. If I submit the application with five preprints on biorxiv, I might as well not have published those. It's like that all the way down - my last academic employer required me to publish a certain amount of papers per year in my niche's top 10% impact factor journals. it's due to laziness - I'm an expert, my employer is not, so my employer cannot evaluate my work quality. So the evaluation is outsourced to journal editors, with a paper acceptance in a prestigious journal being a stamp of approval of my skills.
The reason why people do not build their own journals is that they will work, for a long time, outside this impact factor system. You could chuck all of your papers into alternative journals, but you will fast jeopardise your career. It's not a technological problem, it's a political problem.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#25You cannot really blame Elsevier here. They are just taking advantage of a dysfunctional academic system. The cost of reviewing a paper properly is high, but academia is not paying that cost by simply not doing a proper review. If the money saved by cutting Elsevier out (in this case £2700 per accepted paper) would actually be added to a pool out of which reviews are financed, I would see the point. But as it is, the…
(usually people in a field know which preprints are “good” and don’t care much if they’ve been peer reviewed yet.)
so research communities themselves don’t intrinsically want to pay the cost of high quality compensated peer review when most of the value goes to others.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#26https://www.researchprofessionalnews.com/rr-news-europe-infr...
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#27So I'm not sure why people don't vote with their feet (well, mouse clicks) regarding Elsevier.
Of course, copying and stealing is very bad.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
The article states that peer review is done on a volunteer basis, right? All Elsevier does, at best, is put PDFs of the papers on their servers.
They also manage the review process (screen papers, find reviewers, communicate with authors and reviewers), make sure that papers are accessible long-term (decades to centuries), typeset manuscripts, print paper issues, and several other tasks. But yes, reviewers are not paid. A half-decent review can easily take 3-4 hours, and a typical paper gets 2-3 reviews, so something like 8-12 hours of PhD-level labor which a…
They do not. That's the editor's job, and Elsevier journal editors are unpaid volunteers -- as the Guardian article correctly pointed out.
> A half-decent review can easily take 3-4 hours, and a typical paper gets 2-3 reviews, so something like 8-12 hours of PhD-level labor which are not currently compensated.
It generally takes much much longer than that.
The average article in Neuroimage is 14 pages long (~ 10000 words), not counting references and declarations. Pure reading, single-domain, technical: the chart says 10k words will take at least 60 minutes. And you'll definitely need to read the article more than once while doing peer review.
Then you'll need to look up references, do some sanity check calculations, evaluate artifacts if available, scrutinize figures, and unless you're up-to-date on all recent developments of the field, probably read at least one more article on prior work just to understand what's going on. If unusual methods were used in the evaluations, you have to understand these too, so better add a few more days.
And you still have to actually write the review: at that point, you only have some notes and scribbles! In neuroscience, we're talking about at least 2-3 days of FTE work. And that's only the first round of reviews. About 80% of articles go through multiple rounds of review-response, according to Neuroimage's own statistics.
In other fields, review times might be significantly longer (weeks, or in mathematics even months, instead of days).
Elsevier profit margins are 40%, according to their own admission. They could afford the costs of compensating this labor. But why would they?
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#29Curious what is the leading open source system being used for publication of journals where academics are trying to get out of such exploitative practices? Or is it a collection of bespoke setups with no clear leader?
The problem is that academics are evaluated based on the impact factor of the journal they publish in. If I submit a grant application and I have five papers in Nature, I will get the job. If I submit the application with five preprints on biorxiv, I might as well not have published those. It's like that all the way down - my last academic employer required me to publish a certain amount of papers per year in my nich…
Because if there is no such restriction, instead of paying £2,700 to Elsevier, they can pay the new platform significantly less and still get the review done by the same quality of editors. Sure the platform name isn't as reputable as Elsevier's is but the editors are the same and the only way to build reputation is to spend time and effort on it - it is obviously not an overnight task.
It is definitely a hard problem - obviously our armchair discussion can't solve it. But it is a very interesting problem.
Re: Walkout at global science journal over ‘unethical’ fees
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
The only thing elsevier manages is their website. The review process is managed by academics who also work for free. Typesetting is done by authors. Paper printing is basically extinct.
Typesetting is done by authors (in some fields) and then completely redone by Elsevier staff. The value they add is questionable at best, but they certainly spend a lot of effort making the paper conform to their standards.
...or detract, one might add. I know of a researcher who has been meticulous about editing and wording, only to have the submissions "corrected" for publication to use the wrong word (existing, and meaning something different) for key concepts.
I'm guessing incompetence combined with standard dictionary computer spellchecking at the publisher's end.