Upwork removing 5% commission bracket and moving everyone to 10% bracket • Hacker News Board

Re: Upwork removing 5% commission bracket and moving everyone to 10% bracket

#31

Post by benjaminwootton » Sat, May 06, 2023, 8:22 AM UTC

Rufbdbskrufb473 wrote: post #23

benjaminwootton wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main value add of Upwork for freelancers is helping them to find work in the marketplace. If you can find and bill directly, of course that may be preferable, but finding clients is hard and the business development also has a cost.

What I don't understand is how they keep most freelancers on the platform after finding a client. I've only used it once, but after having a call with the client, I felt comfortable accepting payment directly in crypto and not paying their fees.

I’m sure lots of people do this.

The advantage of staying on the platform for freelancers is that they are guaranteed to get paid for correctly booked work on a predictable timeline.

For buyers, the advantage is one weekly payment to your credit card, some contractural protection and a bunch of features to support the work.

I’ve never felt the need to bypass them as a buyer, and I’ve only been approach a few times by freelancers to go direct. (My answer has been no mainly because I dislike the admin of manually paying people, checking timesheets, invoices etc.)

Re: Upwork removing 5% commission bracket and moving everyone to 10% bracket

#32

Post by sleepychu » Sat, May 06, 2023, 8:26 AM UTC

sph wrote: post #28

nnurmanov wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could not find a ClickHouse expert for some project, not sure where to look such people

Not a direct answer but: don't look just for ClickHouse experts. When you hire a plumber, do you only hire experts of that exact brand? 90% of the job I apply for, on Upwork or otherwise, are always looking for an expert in a particular niche technology, and hire only based off that small nugget of information. I have been doing Elixir full time since 2016, and got a contract with someone that was looking for a Phoen…

When I'm hiring an employee, I'm looking for you! A generalist who will apply their wealth of database experience to my problems and learn what they need for my specifics along the way. I expect to pay some on ramp time where I don't get much in return.

When I'm hiring a contractor, I'm not really interested in paying them to learn, I'm interested in getting my need fulfilled as efficiently as possible. If the problem I have is my square zinc kitchen sink it makes sense to find someone who already knows about them.

Re: Upwork removing 5% commission bracket and moving everyone to 10% bracket

#33

Post by sph » Sat, May 06, 2023, 8:26 AM UTC

desaiguddu wrote: post #14

sph wrote: post #5

Meh, that's a dishonest title. Yes, Upwork are moving everybody on the 10% fee. But they previously had a progressive fee: * 20% fee for the first $500 earned from a client * 10% fee between $500 and $10,000 earned * 5% fee after the first $10,000 earned Those figures are per client. Start a new job with someone else, you start from the lower bracket again. So they were basically living off short term contracts and l…

IMHO, most of the Upwork jobs are upwards of $1000 if it's a serious client. A large number of freelancers & agencies have built a stable clients on Upwork from years together. It will be a little revenue shock for them. Or eventually clients will pay more to cover the costs. Let's assume you are a freelancer with a client relationship of 40k * 20% fee for the first $500 earned from a client - $100 * 10% fee between…

True, your figures seem correct.

I guess the problem is that I haven't had any luck finding any serious client, due to the competition and race-to-the-bottom.

Some clients want quality, of course, but in this economy if it's a lottery to find a job in the real world, it's a lottery for those billing upwards of $100/h on Upwork.

So what's left is small contracts where being a seasoned expert to deal with emergencies is more important than being cheap.

Re: Upwork removing 5% commission bracket and moving everyone to 10% bracket

#34

Post by anonzzzies » Sat, May 06, 2023, 8:29 AM UTC

They must already be making a killing as they don’t do much; I mean their platform is so depressingly badly written, I don’t quite understand how you can get it to that state. They want (it’s in the rules) you to stay in their chat and communication system, but it is basically unusable for anything serious, so no one does. There is the impossible invoicing more people here mentioned; my accountant keeps asking if they cannot just send 1 invoice once per month that it is clear instead of the vague warble they send once a week.

Their ‘recruiters’ are just friendly community chatters who talk a lot to people with that automatically (you get them too in the recommended list) match the skills (in their profile; there is of course no way to tell if they actually do match the skills you need; I needed an AD expert for 1 year and the recruiter introduced me to the perfect person; in a chat they admitted to me that they had worked with it once a long time ago…).

This is ready for disruption. But not by something like Toptal. Which should be mentioned, if you want to talk about greed…

Re: Upwork removing 5% commission bracket and moving everyone to 10% bracket

#35

Post by sph » Sat, May 06, 2023, 8:30 AM UTC

sleepychu wrote: post #32

sph wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a direct answer but: don't look just for ClickHouse experts. When you hire a plumber, do you only hire experts of that exact brand? 90% of the job I apply for, on Upwork or otherwise, are always looking for an expert in a particular niche technology, and hire only based off that small nugget of information. I have been doing Elixir full time since 2016, and got a contract with someone that was looking for a Phoen…

When I'm hiring an employee, I'm looking for you! A generalist who will apply their wealth of database experience to my problems and learn what they need for my specifics along the way. I expect to pay some on ramp time where I don't get much in return. When I'm hiring a contractor, I'm not really interested in paying them to learn, I'm interested in getting my need fulfilled as efficiently as possible. If the proble…

Makes sense, but I do not completely agree.

In my 11 years of experience as a consultant, people hire me because they need a square zinc sink fixed, but as soon as they see that I know much more than that, they ask me to redo the living room wall and trim the topiary.

Being an expert gets me through the door, being a generalist keeps me around.

The problem is that the square sink expert filter is the biggest obstacle to getting a contract. Reason why with 17 years of total experience, I'm still without a job after 4 months, my longest jobless stint in my entire career (to be fair, I'm pivoting towards starting my own business rather than keep being rejected by clueless recruiters)

Re: Upwork removing 5% commission bracket and moving everyone to 10% bracket

#36

Post by throwaway290 » Sat, May 06, 2023, 8:32 AM UTC

Rufbdbskrufb473 wrote: post #23

benjaminwootton wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main value add of Upwork for freelancers is helping them to find work in the marketplace. If you can find and bill directly, of course that may be preferable, but finding clients is hard and the business development also has a cost.

What I don't understand is how they keep most freelancers on the platform after finding a client. I've only used it once, but after having a call with the client, I felt comfortable accepting payment directly in crypto and not paying their fees.

People who actually rely on Upwork care about fresh reputation and active status. Platform makes it appealing to stay active. They have a decent reputation with customers, so it's a backup for when you fire your current client. But if you are inactive they stop recommending you and after a while you are delisted making it tougher to get clients. And customers like to see people who are active.

Also, automatic billing is a big value add for those of us who hate paperwork and chasing non paying customers. Upwork does it for you.

Re crypto, it's an appealing vehicle for laundering and we don't want to be implicated. couple of clients suggested it and it's a red flag for me. (if you want to get paid in crypto I don't get why you would use Upwork at all honestly, surely you have your own great platforms with how much talent is supposedly working on that web3 stuff)

Re: Upwork removing 5% commission bracket and moving everyone to 10% bracket

#37

Post by webmobdev » Sat, May 06, 2023, 8:47 AM UTC

sph wrote: post #5

Meh, that's a dishonest title. Yes, Upwork are moving everybody on the 10% fee. But they previously had a progressive fee: * 20% fee for the first $500 earned from a client * 10% fee between $500 and $10,000 earned * 5% fee after the first $10,000 earned Those figures are per client. Start a new job with someone else, you start from the lower bracket again. So they were basically living off short term contracts and l…

Yes, milking the lower end is just unfair and will obviously create resentment in freelancers. A really long time back I complained to them that their fees were unfair (I think about the time when eLance and oDesk merged). And their reply was educational to me - "Why are you paying the fees? Bill it to your client or share the cost with them?". And I did start doing that. Few clients were ok with that because the <$500 crowd are the "cost conscious" (to be polite) crowd. The higher brackets were somewhat more easier to convince because they had more to lose and thus felt the indirect payment through UpWork offered them some protection. But yeah, even 10% is still high if they are also charging the other party too.

Re: Upwork removing 5% commission bracket and moving everyone to 10% bracket

#38

Post by z3t4 » Sat, May 06, 2023, 8:49 AM UTC

Sites like upwork, freelancer, fiver, etc are the worst places to find contract jobs. Its a mix of very desperate people and scammers, the quality is very low, and the rates are low - attracting the worst possible buyers. No one will see your posts unless you spend money, and it costs a lot. So you are better off spending your money and time on advertising your services and do networking activities in your local area. Use your social network to find referrers. Or work for people that are good at finding jobs

Re: Upwork removing 5% commission bracket and moving everyone to 10% bracket

#39

Post by bombcar » Sat, May 06, 2023, 8:51 AM UTC

webmobdev wrote: post #37

sph wrote: post #5

Meh, that's a dishonest title. Yes, Upwork are moving everybody on the 10% fee. But they previously had a progressive fee: * 20% fee for the first $500 earned from a client * 10% fee between $500 and $10,000 earned * 5% fee after the first $10,000 earned Those figures are per client. Start a new job with someone else, you start from the lower bracket again. So they were basically living off short term contracts and l…

Yes, milking the lower end is just unfair and will obviously create resentment in freelancers. A really long time back I complained to them that their fees were unfair (I think about the time when eLance and oDesk merged). And their reply was educational to me - "Why are you paying the fees? Bill it to your client or share the cost with them?" . And I did start doing that. Few clients were ok with that because the <$…

All fees get paid by the customer in one way or another, it's just how it's advertised and how you think about it.

With business-related things it's better to have it upfront in my experience.

Re: Upwork removing 5% commission bracket and moving everyone to 10% bracket

#40

Post by anovikov » Sat, May 06, 2023, 8:51 AM UTC

anonzzzies wrote: post #34

They must already be making a killing as they don’t do much; I mean their platform is so depressingly badly written, I don’t quite understand how you can get it to that state. They want (it’s in the rules) you to stay in their chat and communication system, but it is basically unusable for anything serious, so no one does. There is the impossible invoicing more people here mentioned; my accountant keeps asking if the…

They are losing money and have always been. They are spending a ridiculous amount of money to bring in clients through ads and other marketing channels, and the whole thing simply doesn't look too sustainable.