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The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

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Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#51

Post by csours »

zoklet-enjoyer wrote: post #21
shadowgovt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major factors after Vietnam that changed the scenario (such that, as you note, Iraq does not impact the national psyche like Vietnam and Cambodia did) are 1) Vietnam broke the back of the draft system. In the aftermath of that war, after realizing force of law had been used to force Americans to kill and be killed in an invasion for no gain, there has not been the political will to reactivate the draft for any re…

Why didn't everyone dodge the draft? I'd rather go to prison than go to war. Especially if it was a war I didn't support.

Yea, it's hard to imagine now, but they didn't all have the benefit of hindsight that we do.

Many people were very proud of their service in WWII and Korea, and they passed that pride on to their kids. WWI was still in living memory at that time, too.

Kids were way less cynical. I think it's legitimately hard to imagine now.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#52

Post by rodoxcasta »

zoklet-enjoyer wrote: post #21
shadowgovt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major factors after Vietnam that changed the scenario (such that, as you note, Iraq does not impact the national psyche like Vietnam and Cambodia did) are 1) Vietnam broke the back of the draft system. In the aftermath of that war, after realizing force of law had been used to force Americans to kill and be killed in an invasion for no gain, there has not been the political will to reactivate the draft for any re…

Why didn't everyone dodge the draft? I'd rather go to prison than go to war. Especially if it was a war I didn't support.

One thing to keep in mind is that for most of the war, it had strong public support. There was a continuous defamation campaign against the anti-war movement. Days after the shooting at Kent, a poll showed 80% agreeing that it was the students' fault.

I'm speculating, but I think that the few who refused to serve were met with the same outrage that someone like Weinstein receives today. It's no surprise that most eighteen-year-old boys could not do that, even if they were strongly against the war.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#53

Post by fullshark »

zoklet-enjoyer wrote: post #21
shadowgovt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major factors after Vietnam that changed the scenario (such that, as you note, Iraq does not impact the national psyche like Vietnam and Cambodia did) are 1) Vietnam broke the back of the draft system. In the aftermath of that war, after realizing force of law had been used to force Americans to kill and be killed in an invasion for no gain, there has not been the political will to reactivate the draft for any re…

Why didn't everyone dodge the draft? I'd rather go to prison than go to war. Especially if it was a war I didn't support.

Defying your government's orders is easier said than done, even if your life is at risk.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#54

Post by JoeDaDude »

Being alive at the time, I remember there was a lot of demonizing one's opponents, much like today in fact. I remember anti-war protestors being thought of as free love fornicating, pot smoking, communists and police and soldiers being called pigs and baby killers.

Once your opponent is dehumanized in this way, the violence that follows is easily justified, certainly in the heat of the moment. It becomes easy to throw rocks at police and burn ROTC buildings. It becomes easy to shoot protestors who are enemies of the state.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#55

Post by aranarquelion »

I remember, as a student in high school, seeing this event get barely a paragraph in our textbooks, and it made me so angry. My mother was there on that day; she was friends with three of the four people who died. She was passing by on the way to class, and a friend pushed her down and told her to run when the shooting started. On a different day, she was chased back to her dorm by guardsmen with tear gas for walking with a group of three people, who nonetheless fired it directly into the dorm after she and the other students had made it in. She had to transfer away from Kent State due to the trauma of everything, and she has struggled some degree of PTSD ever since.

Thanks for reminding me what day it was today.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#57

Post by stefantalpalaru »

shadowgovt wrote: post #10
renewiltord wrote: post #5

The Vietnam War really wrecked America's sense of self, eh? Out in Vietnam, American soldiers were busy burning innocent people in My Lai, back home armed military were shooting students, and then to cap it all, America lost. Absolute hammer to the national identity. For a nation that has prosecuted so many wars before and since, it is quite interesting that this one was such a cultural blow. Even Iraq, fought on the…

The major factors after Vietnam that changed the scenario (such that, as you note, Iraq does not impact the national psyche like Vietnam and Cambodia did) are 1) Vietnam broke the back of the draft system. In the aftermath of that war, after realizing force of law had been used to force Americans to kill and be killed in an invasion for no gain, there has not been the political will to reactivate the draft for any re…

[dead]

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#58

Post by [deleted] »

zoklet-enjoyer wrote: post #21
shadowgovt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major factors after Vietnam that changed the scenario (such that, as you note, Iraq does not impact the national psyche like Vietnam and Cambodia did) are 1) Vietnam broke the back of the draft system. In the aftermath of that war, after realizing force of law had been used to force Americans to kill and be killed in an invasion for no gain, there has not been the political will to reactivate the draft for any re…

Why didn't everyone dodge the draft? I'd rather go to prison than go to war. Especially if it was a war I didn't support.

[deleted]

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#59

Post by DFHippie »

jimbob45 wrote: post #37
mrguyorama wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's as american as apple pie to use state violence on innocent and largely peaceful protestors and then just pretend it's no big deal. Remember the time unmarked soldiers were pulling people off the street in Portland? Or when peaceful protestors were disbursed with force so the president could take a picture while holding a bible upsidedown? Or Waco. Or the battle of Blair Mountain. Or the Tulsa Race Massacre. Amer…

It's as american as apple pie to use state violence on innocent and largely peaceful protestors and then just pretend it's no big deal You have it backwards. We manipulate the police into attacking and then pretend to be victims. See: Boston Massacre, BLM 2020, 2021 Capital Protests

What? All the unarmed black men killed by the police were seeking martyrdom in order to manipulate the police? Wow. If the police are so easily manipulated to perpetrate violence on the folks they are sworn to protect (and therefore should be held blameless), we really need better police. Maybe they don't cover not shooting civilians in the six weeks or training or whatever it is new recruits receive. They should also have a course on resisting the jedi mind control civilians are apparently capable of.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#60

Post by mehlmao »

JoeDaDude wrote: post #54

Being alive at the time, I remember there was a lot of demonizing one's opponents, much like today in fact. I remember anti-war protestors being thought of as free love fornicating, pot smoking, communists and police and soldiers being called pigs and baby killers. Once your opponent is dehumanized in this way, the violence that follows is easily justified, certainly in the heat of the moment. It becomes easy to thro…

That is a false equivalence. Also, why would someone in 1970 think American soldiers were baby killers? https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/03/30/the-scene-of-t...
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