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The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

kent.edu

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Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major factors after Vietnam that changed the scenario (such that, as you note, Iraq does not impact the national psyche like Vietnam and Cambodia did) are 1) Vietnam broke the back of the draft system. In the aftermath of that war, after realizing force of law had been used to force Americans to kill and be killed in an invasion for no gain, there has not been the political will to reactivate the draft for any re…

Why didn't everyone dodge the draft? I'd rather go to prison than go to war. Especially if it was a war I didn't support.

Imagine for a moment that you live in a country that has fought a half dozen wars somewhere in the past century, and that every one of those was (more or less) morally justified. Your great-grandfathers, grandfathers, and father were probably drafted into those, fought and (likely, you were born after all) returned.

But the next war comes up, and everyone tells you that it's righteous too. Maybe they're mistaken or deluded. The people in charge, demanding this war, they aren't supervillains either. They believe they're fighting communism, and while they probably couldn't have known for sure at the time, history has shown it to have been horrible enough that some sort of strategy should've been employed (even if not a shooting war).

Are you going to be the one to back down? There's none of this wokeness that exists today. You'd be called worse than just a pussy for dodging it. Even those who knew of and understood shell shock only cut slack for those who had suffered it, you wouldn't get pre-emptive sympathy.

And those grandfathers and fathers who did go off and fight, you're sort of insulting them though not coming out and saying it outright. If you're morally justified in dodging the draft, should they have done the same? They didn't, so are they just amoral killers now? And this isn't going on in your own head, not entirely, you can tell they're sitting there thinking the same thing, wondering if you'll be one of the hippies that insults them by dodging.

There may be moral principles strong enough that it would demand someone dodge the draft, but those sorts of principles aren't popular or encouraged in the US. Why, if people will dodge the draft during bad wars because of this, what does it mean if the principles say "all wars in which enemies aren't landing on our beaching and dropping shells on our undefended cities are bad"? Well, it means that officeholders who will eventually want a war of their own can't have it. And all officeholders eventually want a war, even if they all can't agree on which.

That's why everyone didn't dodge the draft. Sociological pressures, psychological pressures. Ambiguous popular moralities and people not wise or strong enough to create better ones.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#42
post #6

Armed soldiers wheeled and fired en masse on unarmed protestors yet none of them faced legal penalty. The state of Ohio paid compensation. Because the soldiers "feared for their lives." I'm sure it was scary, but maybe we need braver national guardsmen. Official ass covering after official violence is a long tradition.

It's as american as apple pie to use state violence on innocent and largely peaceful protestors and then just pretend it's no big deal. Remember the time unmarked soldiers were pulling people off the street in Portland? Or when peaceful protestors were disbursed with force so the president could take a picture while holding a bible upsidedown? Or Waco. Or the battle of Blair Mountain. Or the Tulsa Race Massacre. Amer…

I just want to add Rainbow Farm to this list, because it was discussed so little in its immediate aftermath (almost certainly owing to 9/11 occurring days later).

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#43
post #6

Armed soldiers wheeled and fired en masse on unarmed protestors yet none of them faced legal penalty. The state of Ohio paid compensation. Because the soldiers "feared for their lives." I'm sure it was scary, but maybe we need braver national guardsmen. Official ass covering after official violence is a long tradition.

[flagged]

I know this subject needs to be (and deserves to be) treated with great care, but I think this is an unfair comparison.

I was and am an ardent supporter of (and often, a participant in) the street protests of that era, and for the reforms and abolition for which they were calling. I was in the thick of the tear gas in Portland many times, hoping that our actions might lead to a greater respect for Black lives in the USA. And I wish Rittenhouse had stayed home that evening and that those protesters were alive and uninjured today.

That said, comparing his situation to this one is unfair.

Rittenhouse was in a violent and confusing scuffle and was injured immediately before engaging. He had a loaded gun pointed at him at the moment he fired at Grosskreutz. Using him as the poster boy for bogus self-defense claims, especially the extremely specious versions of them so often proffered by law enforcement when they kill dogs or humans, seems counter-productive.

These guardsmen had no comparable basis for fearing for their lives that day (or in the days prior, when they inflicted grotesque violence, including stabbing 11 people with bayonets).

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#44
post #6

Armed soldiers wheeled and fired en masse on unarmed protestors yet none of them faced legal penalty. The state of Ohio paid compensation. Because the soldiers "feared for their lives." I'm sure it was scary, but maybe we need braver national guardsmen. Official ass covering after official violence is a long tradition.

Unlike the rich and privileged college kids, the guardsmen had no choice in being there, nor did they have any choice about carrying loaded weapons.

Damn didn’t think the CIA mind control tech was actually real.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#45

Not even mentioned is Sihanouk, who had ruled neutral Cambodia since 1941 under various positions, was overthrown in a CIA-sponsored coup in the days before the US invasion of Cambodia. This had the effect of destabilizing Cambodia for the next couple of years.

While I don't defend American adventuring in that region, I think you're overestimating the stability of 1960's Cambodia. This article goes into it: https://ciaotest.cc.columbia.edu/olj/ojpcr/ojpcr_1_1/ojpcr_1... .

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#46
post #33

Today, a school shooting that only killed four people would barely make the news.

It would if it were the cops doing the shooting, as is being discussed here.

It was not the cops who shot, but rather National Guard troops.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why didn't everyone dodge the draft? I'd rather go to prison than go to war. Especially if it was a war I didn't support.

Imagine for a moment that you live in a country that has fought a half dozen wars somewhere in the past century, and that every one of those was (more or less) morally justified. Your great-grandfathers, grandfathers, and father were probably drafted into those, fought and (likely, you were born after all) returned. But the next war comes up, and everyone tells you that it's righteous too. Maybe they're mistaken or d…

> Imagine for a moment that you live in a country that has fought a half dozen wars somewhere in the past century, and that every one of those was (more or less) morally justified.

The US fought in a lot more than a half dozen wars in the century before Kent State and it takes pretty interesting morality to judge them all “more or less” morally justified.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#48
post #6

Armed soldiers wheeled and fired en masse on unarmed protestors yet none of them faced legal penalty. The state of Ohio paid compensation. Because the soldiers "feared for their lives." I'm sure it was scary, but maybe we need braver national guardsmen. Official ass covering after official violence is a long tradition.

[flagged]

Any reasonable and unbiased viewing of the facts of the Rittenhouse case would conclude he acted in self-defense, which happens to be what the court decided as well. One of the people he shot admitted under oath that they had chased Rittenhouse with a mob, then pointed a gun at Rittenhouse and were preparing to shoot him prior to being shot by Rittenhouse.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what happened at Kent State.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would if it were the cops doing the shooting, as is being discussed here.

It was not the cops who shot, but rather National Guard troops.

That would make even more news.

I mean, the National Guard being deployed to a campus protest is more newsworthy than the average campus shooting these days, even if no one is shot.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine for a moment that you live in a country that has fought a half dozen wars somewhere in the past century, and that every one of those was (more or less) morally justified. Your great-grandfathers, grandfathers, and father were probably drafted into those, fought and (likely, you were born after all) returned. But the next war comes up, and everyone tells you that it's righteous too. Maybe they're mistaken or d…

> Imagine for a moment that you live in a country that has fought a half dozen wars somewhere in the past century, and that every one of those was (more or less) morally justified. The US fought in a lot more than a half dozen wars in the century before Kent State and it takes pretty interesting morality to judge them all “more or less” morally justified.

The big 3 they'd think of would be Korean, WWII, and WWI before it. I don't much think that those are the ones you're claiming were morally questionable, are they?

Sure, there were many. Find me a highschool graduate in Podunk Alabama that knew all of those "more than half a dozen", and was enlightened enough to care that natives were genocided a century earlier.

"Gee, why didn't someone in 1968 have the same sensibilities that I have?!?!"

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