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The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

kent.edu

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Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#21

Post by zoklet-enjoyer »

shadowgovt wrote: post #10
renewiltord wrote: post #5

The Vietnam War really wrecked America's sense of self, eh? Out in Vietnam, American soldiers were busy burning innocent people in My Lai, back home armed military were shooting students, and then to cap it all, America lost. Absolute hammer to the national identity. For a nation that has prosecuted so many wars before and since, it is quite interesting that this one was such a cultural blow. Even Iraq, fought on the…

The major factors after Vietnam that changed the scenario (such that, as you note, Iraq does not impact the national psyche like Vietnam and Cambodia did) are 1) Vietnam broke the back of the draft system. In the aftermath of that war, after realizing force of law had been used to force Americans to kill and be killed in an invasion for no gain, there has not been the political will to reactivate the draft for any re…

Why didn't everyone dodge the draft? I'd rather go to prison than go to war. Especially if it was a war I didn't support.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#22

Post by GartzenDeHaes »

DFHippie wrote: post #6

Armed soldiers wheeled and fired en masse on unarmed protestors yet none of them faced legal penalty. The state of Ohio paid compensation. Because the soldiers "feared for their lives." I'm sure it was scary, but maybe we need braver national guardsmen. Official ass covering after official violence is a long tradition.

Unlike the rich and privileged college kids, the guardsmen had no choice in being there, nor did they have any choice about carrying loaded weapons.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#23

Post by soperj »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #13
mrguyorama wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's as american as apple pie to use state violence on innocent and largely peaceful protestors and then just pretend it's no big deal. Remember the time unmarked soldiers were pulling people off the street in Portland? Or when peaceful protestors were disbursed with force so the president could take a picture while holding a bible upsidedown? Or Waco. Or the battle of Blair Mountain. Or the Tulsa Race Massacre. Amer…

Government abuse is not uniquely American. Practically every state in history has abused its monopoly on violence to shut down political dissent.

Apple pie isn't very American either[1]

1. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-apple-pie-link...

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#24

Post by shadowgovt »

zoklet-enjoyer wrote: post #21
shadowgovt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major factors after Vietnam that changed the scenario (such that, as you note, Iraq does not impact the national psyche like Vietnam and Cambodia did) are 1) Vietnam broke the back of the draft system. In the aftermath of that war, after realizing force of law had been used to force Americans to kill and be killed in an invasion for no gain, there has not been the political will to reactivate the draft for any re…

Why didn't everyone dodge the draft? I'd rather go to prison than go to war. Especially if it was a war I didn't support.

All manner of reasons. Some legitimately felt called to serve. This is still a generation who's parents were drafted into World War II and Korea; in the psyche of a lot of Americans, the draft was still a virtuous thing that the well-chosen democratically-elected representatives of their great nation would never activate for a foolish boondoggle. They didn't know a Vietnam could happen because a Vietnam hadn't happened yet; they weren't the generation raised listening to CCR's "Fortunate Son." The pull of the mainstream is very strong.

Five years in jail is also quite a long time, and as the war dragged on I suspect a lot of folks weren't sure how long those jail sentences would ultimately be; remember, if you were drafted, dodged, were caught, and served, you'd be immediately drafted again and could go right back to jail (because the war lasted longer than 5 years). Since the goals were unclear, I suspect many served thinking the war would be over soon and a couple years in a battlefield with "the army that saved the world from Hitler" would be better than cooling your heels in jail for five years (and then being branded a coward by your family the rest of your life because your dad lost two brothers in his War and you were too chickenshit to live up to the family legacy).

Draft dodging wasn't the obvious correct choice until many years into the war; Americans had won (or at least come to a standstill on) drafted wars before.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#25

Post by Paul-Craft »

082349872349872 wrote: post #11

cf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCS-g3HwXdc

Very powerful. That should be the official video for Ohio, if you ask me. It was a bit on the nose that they put up the composite of the four slain students yearbook(?) pictures whenever the song came around to "Four dead in Ohio," but the rest of the arrangement is so moving, I can forgive that.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#26

Post by [deleted] »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #13
mrguyorama wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's as american as apple pie to use state violence on innocent and largely peaceful protestors and then just pretend it's no big deal. Remember the time unmarked soldiers were pulling people off the street in Portland? Or when peaceful protestors were disbursed with force so the president could take a picture while holding a bible upsidedown? Or Waco. Or the battle of Blair Mountain. Or the Tulsa Race Massacre. Amer…

Government abuse is not uniquely American. Practically every state in history has abused its monopoly on violence to shut down political dissent.

[deleted]

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#27

Post by Paul-Craft »

skyyler wrote: post #8
Convolutional wrote: post #2

Not even mentioned is Sihanouk, who had ruled neutral Cambodia since 1941 under various positions, was overthrown in a CIA-sponsored coup in the days before the US invasion of Cambodia. This had the effect of destabilizing Cambodia for the next couple of years.

“ Once you’ve been to Cambodia, you’ll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black-tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did in Cambodia – the fruits of his genius for s…

Very true. Fortunately, however, there are enough reasons to want to beat Kissinger to death with your bare hands that you don't have to actually go to Cambodia. A trip to the library, or a google search or 3 ought to be enough.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#28

Post by localplume »

renewiltord wrote: post #5

The Vietnam War really wrecked America's sense of self, eh? Out in Vietnam, American soldiers were busy burning innocent people in My Lai, back home armed military were shooting students, and then to cap it all, America lost. Absolute hammer to the national identity. For a nation that has prosecuted so many wars before and since, it is quite interesting that this one was such a cultural blow. Even Iraq, fought on the…

[dead]

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#29

Post by Paul-Craft »

shadowgovt wrote: post #18
Paul-Craft wrote: post #4

I'm surprised the article doesn't show "the picture": https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2021/05/19/kent-state-shooti...

Given the source and the picture's content, I'm pretty sure they'd really prefer not to. There are probably still faculty and staff working there who met that kid.

Yeah, I missed that the url goes to kent.edu. Still, that photo is out there, and it's actually more present by its absence here IMO.

Given it was published in 1998, you might be right about the latter point, but I doubt anyone is still hanging around from 53 years ago today.

Re: The Shootings at Kent State: The Search for Historical Accuracy (1998)

#30

Post by renewiltord »

zoklet-enjoyer wrote: post #21
shadowgovt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major factors after Vietnam that changed the scenario (such that, as you note, Iraq does not impact the national psyche like Vietnam and Cambodia did) are 1) Vietnam broke the back of the draft system. In the aftermath of that war, after realizing force of law had been used to force Americans to kill and be killed in an invasion for no gain, there has not been the political will to reactivate the draft for any re…

Why didn't everyone dodge the draft? I'd rather go to prison than go to war. Especially if it was a war I didn't support.

I reckon I would probably have rather fought than faced the shame of being a draft dodger. It couldn't have been that obvious when the war was in the middle, that it would turn out as it did. America usually wins.

I think shadowgovt's post was quite neat: the draft and the body count.

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