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How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

pudding.cool

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Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#131

Post by teeray »

liendolucas wrote: post #78
teeray wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re exactly correct. The payment obligation still exists through the contract for service; you’ve just disabled the means to automatically settle that debt. So the debt accumulates. Sometimes a company writes it off as bad debt and terminates it for non-payment, other times they sell it to a collections agency and ding your credit (e.g. gyms).

Oh wow... If that's not another dark pattern, hell I don't know how to call it. So no company out there would automatically cancel your contract if they aren't able to debit from you? How's that even possible? If I understood correctly the debt will increase indefinitely even let's say after two failed attempts to charge from you? Why is not that illegal?

Because you agreed to pay them and you’re reneging on your part of the agreement. If you want to terminate the contract, you need to terminate it in the way spelled out in the contract. If it states that not paying your bill automatically terminates the agreement, then your fine. If not, well, you can’t make up your own rules once the ink is dry.

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#132

Post by willcipriano »

pnutjam wrote: post #124
tarunupaday wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I call bullshit on this one. Apple allows a Parent / Guardian account to reset the password of a child account. I do not have to do anything. I can just go into my iCloud settings and just reset my child’s account right away. Also, Apple does not allow you to create a child account (below 13) without having a parent account attached to it. My guess is that you lied during account creation and created an adult account…

My child's school forces us to create accounts the way you describe. Since kids all get ipads they need icloud accounts, but the school does not participate in the program that lets them create icloud accounts for kids. You as a parent must create the account. If you don't use apple products, I don't, you can only create an adult account. You cannot create a child account, or manage it once created, without another a…

In order to attend the public school you have been paying for must first agree to a contract with a private company, if you refuse men with guns will put you in prison and put your child into the care of a foster family where they have a fairly high probability of being abused.

Nice kid you got there, would be a shame if something happened to them...

How the hell is this allowed?

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#133

Post by hayst4ck »

gloryjulio wrote: post #129
hayst4ck wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every individual company has an incentive to be a bad actor when it comes to subscriptions (or dark patterns in general). Apple is a regulatory authority acting on this tragedy of the commons. Apple has created a situation where it has a near monopoly of force when it comes to apps in the apple'sphere and is using this to the benefit of consumers. It's no wonder people prefer apple's walled garden to libertarian andr…

Play store is able to do the same if google want to. It's not a problem. Its company's choice to sideload

That's what I'm saying, one company took the stance that they want to be a regulator, while the other took the stance that they want minimal regulation. People prefer the regulated environment.

Everyone wants the benefit of regulations (people can't do the thing thing I don't like) but many don't want to pay the cost of regulations (I can't do the things those other people don't like).

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#134

Post by sandruso »

My recent story on linkedin.

I subscribed for premium as I was eligible for free month. I did use one-time card as I wanted to unsubscribe before end. Of course I forgot to that. It tried to charge the card but it failed. When I tried to cancel the subscription it said I have attached invalid card.

Okay I will remove card and cancel subscription. Oh, no so fast. I couldn't remove card because I had "active" subscription. It was circular deadlock.

Finally I found way to unsubscribe on their plan picking page after few minutes of frustration. I hope this is QA issue and not intentional.

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#135

Post by widowlark »

chasing wrote: post #24

You know which services I don't have problems cancelling? Ones I subscribe to via Apple's in-app payments. I get that it sucks to have Apple scrape a percentage of my payments for themselves, but if you're a company I don't fully trust and/or want to have total control over my subscription without a bunch of hassle, Apple's IAPs are the way to go. Mostly this is great with the big streaming services. Want Disney+ or…

If you want to do this outside of apples ecosystem, I suggest using privacy.com to generate a card with only the first month's payment available, then closing the card after the charge has been made. simple as, with no corp skimming off the top.

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#136

Post by [deleted] »

eli wrote: post #13

"Deceptive patterns" is now the preferred term for what used to be called "dark patterns" It's both more descriptive and avoids equating "dark" to "bad". I've also heard "hostile patterns" as an umbrella term that covers deceptive patterns as well as careless UX problems like a design that isn't accessible.

[deleted]

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#137

Post by gloryjulio »

hayst4ck wrote: post #133
gloryjulio wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Play store is able to do the same if google want to. It's not a problem. Its company's choice to sideload

That's what I'm saying, one company took the stance that they want to be a regulator, while the other took the stance that they want minimal regulation. People prefer the regulated environment. Everyone wants the benefit of regulations (people can't do the thing thing I don't like) but many don't want to pay the cost of regulations (I can't do the things those other people don't like).

It's not like regulation though, it's more like extra service benefits the customers just like credit card (chargeback/insurance/extended warranty etc). There are many credit cards out there and ppl have the choices to have credit card chargeback or not. Or they could choose to use some other payment options. Google could add extra feature when ppl subscribe through play store, and keep app side loading at the same time. It's not either-or situation

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#138

Post by Vespasian »

hayst4ck wrote: post #133
gloryjulio wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Play store is able to do the same if google want to. It's not a problem. Its company's choice to sideload

That's what I'm saying, one company took the stance that they want to be a regulator, while the other took the stance that they want minimal regulation. People prefer the regulated environment. Everyone wants the benefit of regulations (people can't do the thing thing I don't like) but many don't want to pay the cost of regulations (I can't do the things those other people don't like).

I'm usually fine with regulation (and what it costs) that benefit the consumers but I'm not fine with apple (or any private company) being the arbitrator.

Apple is only beholden to it's shareholder and I have 0 influence on their behavior.

Not directed at you, but I don't get how people can complain about unaccountable politicians and then turn towards even less accountable boards of directors instead.

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#139

Post by _gabe_ »

eli wrote: post #102
Damogran6 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So...I get the reasoning, but yet another in a large string of things where I wouldn't have conflated something with race....until you brought it up, and now I do...I don't know if I should feel guilty at the inherent privilege or if people are just taking it to an extreme, or if it's just language being language.

I don't think you or OP or anyone else here is trying to offend. Nor do I think most people hearing the term would find it offensive. But like I said: the alternative is both more descriptive and avoids the issue. This feels like an easy one.

> But like I said: the alternative is both more descriptive and avoids the issue

What issue? Dark is used in the sense that the tactics are hidden. As in, you can't see stuff in the dark.

The real issue here is people automatically conflating every usage of the words dark or black with race. Not everybody sees the world through the lens of race. In fact, you'll find the light vs the dark theme was used in cultures all over the world, not stemming from racism but from the fact that you conceal evil deeds in the night when it's dark outside[0].

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-and-white_dualism

Re: How companies use dark patterns to keep you subscribed

#140

Post by m463 »

chasing wrote: post #24

You know which services I don't have problems cancelling? Ones I subscribe to via Apple's in-app payments. I get that it sucks to have Apple scrape a percentage of my payments for themselves, but if you're a company I don't fully trust and/or want to have total control over my subscription without a bunch of hassle, Apple's IAPs are the way to go. Mostly this is great with the big streaming services. Want Disney+ or…

Remember apple implemented the in-app payments in the first place.
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