Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#41

Post by whats_a_quasar » Thu, May 04, 2023, 5:25 PM UTC

There's a really interesting line of research that suggests Schizophrenia is a spectrum, rather than a binary. Lots of people have personality traits that are similar to schizophrenics or have genetic risk factors for the condition. Some of those people develop the full disorder, and some don't.

There's evidence that the reason for the split is that psychosis is itself damaging. Once someone has a psychotic episode, they are much likelier to have more. But the earlier a psychotic episode is interrupted, by anti-psychotics or therapy, the better outcomes are. So the implication is that many people have some degree of vulnerability to schizophrenia, and only those who have psychotic breaks develop the full condition.

That's a possible causal explanation for a link between marijuana and schizophrenia. Someone who's got some vulnerability to psychosis, but wouldn't otherwise have developed schizophrenia, might be pushed over the edge by heavy drug use. This jives also with anecdotal reports of people who've had really terrible reactions to other psychedelics.

There's a fascinating account by a psychologist who's also schizophrenic. He didn't have his first psychotic break until he was 33, far later than average. He talks about the personality traits of schizophrenics, how he noticed something was off and got early therapy, and how he credits that with delaying a psychotic break and improving his outcomes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2632294/

Not a doctor or scientist, just regurgitating research I read for personal interest.

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#42

Post by tayo42 » Thu, May 04, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

BrianHenryIE wrote: post #37

welshwelsh wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As soon as it's legalized. Cannabis might be bad for your health, but the most significant consequences of cannabis use are getting arrested and losing your job. As long as that's a risk, and as long as people use health concerns as an excuse to take away other people's freedom, we can't have an honest conversation about it.

I saw a comedy clip recently: > Pot doesn't make me paranoid, pot being illegal makes me paranoid

this joke isn't accurate though. its just a meme. getting way to high can you paranoid in other ways. which i guess is like schizophrenia. ime if your the type thats constantly scared of the police itll just turn into other paranoias. "are they talking about me" "why are they looking at me" etc..

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#43

Post by hot_gril » Thu, May 04, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

anoonmoose wrote: post #22

hot_gril wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idk, but I remember the bogus argument that legalizing weed will reduce how many people use it by removing the "forbidden fruit" appeal.

Did you see the article on HN a few days ago about how legal marijuana purchases in the US fell from 2021 to 2022? There was a fair bit of debate around why exactly that was but I personally do think that what you mentioned is a part of it. edit: here's the comments section https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35788120

Article says "In addition to the persisting illicit market and plummeting wholesale prices, extreme delays in local licensing have been cited as a cause for the decline." The article is also about revenue only, so I dunno.

The hypothetical comparison like a decade ago was the number of users before legalization vs the number of users after. Every study I can find showed a sharp increase in usage in states that legalized it. If usage actually fell in '22, I doubt it came anywhere close to reversing the trend since legalization.

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#44

Post by whats_a_quasar » Thu, May 04, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

DaveExeter wrote: post #7

bjourne wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Can we say nicotine has nothing to do with mental illness? Because the mentally ill really like their cigs!

Here's a Scott Alexander post that looks at the link between nicotine and Schizophrenia. The research seems to indicate the nicotine reduces the incidence of schizophrenia, rather than smoking triggering schizophrenia. Smokers are less likely to develop schizophrenia, and mentally ill people probably end up smoking because it helps their symptoms

https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/11/schizophrenia-no-smoki...

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#45

Post by sosodev » Thu, May 04, 2023, 5:28 PM UTC

I wish I could read the study but it is paywalled. The author of this article calls it "a new study of almost 7 million health records" but really it's a review of 20 other studies. So I wonder how they came up that number.

Also, it doesn't make much sense to me to draw correlations between "high potency" cannabis and these outcomes. The potency of the cannabis shouldn't matter nearly as much as the amount of total THC consumed within a single session or whatever, right? I would think it's just harder to consume a ton of THC when the potency is lower.

edit: The commenter lisasays has found and linked the actual study the article is based off of. Apparently it just wasn't linked in the article.

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#46

Post by matthewbauer » Thu, May 04, 2023, 5:29 PM UTC

mikhmha wrote: post #5

I really recommend people interested in Schizophrenia to read the book “Hidden Valley Road”. I saw it recommended in a HN comment previously. The book follows an American family who gave birth to 12 children, 6 of whom were later diagnosed with schizophrenia in their teens. It’s interesting because the book gives lots of insight into the historical to modern research on the condition. In the past psychologists though…

Interestingly, schizophrenia is really rare in accounts before the 1800s. It appears to be a modern disease, which would make it seem like it would be environmental.

Another interesting thing about schizophrenia is it's much more common in cities, even after controlling for drug use and ethnicity[1]. Which again makes it seem like something that was rare in the past.

[1]: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-british-journal-...

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#47

Post by blacksmith_tb » Thu, May 04, 2023, 5:30 PM UTC

freedude wrote: post #31

This isn't news. The link between schizophrenia and cannabis use was known in mental health world before it was ever made illegal. The legalization crowd wouldn't promote that. The news is the problem is increasing and a 3 in 10 chance of males becoming schizophrenic is a reason to avoid it. Now I wonder what the correlation of cannabis use to active shooter incidents is?

Betting that was supposed to read "made legal" but the point is clear, the link is very well known both to the medical world and culturally at large. The question of mass shootings and cannabis is interesting, it doesn't seem as likely that someone, even experiencing serious paranoid schizophrenia would go out into the world shooting (instead of barricading themselves), but then I haven't seen statistics for the use of amphetamines or opioids or alcohol by shooters either.

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#48

Post by lisasays » Thu, May 04, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

Original journal article (apparently not linked to in the Bloomberg piece):

Association between cannabis use disorder and schizophrenia stronger in young males than in females (May 4 2023)

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/psychological-medici...

Interestingly, the journal article doesn't bother to mention how cannabis use disorder (CUD) is defined; however, Bloomberg's description "frequent use despite negative consequences" is essentially that of the DSM, and so is presumably what they're using.

That is - not based any particular rate of consumption (which is of course difficult to measure reliably, especially in prohibitionist countries like Denmark). But "continued use despite negative consequences".

And that seems to be the crux of the matter: what the article is saying, basically, is that "people who continue to use despite negative consequences ... continue to suffer negative consequences." Which is rather different from: "Heavy use, by itself, brings these consequences."

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#49

Post by morkalork » Thu, May 04, 2023, 5:31 PM UTC

freedude wrote: post #31

This isn't news. The link between schizophrenia and cannabis use was known in mental health world before it was ever made illegal. The legalization crowd wouldn't promote that. The news is the problem is increasing and a 3 in 10 chance of males becoming schizophrenic is a reason to avoid it. Now I wonder what the correlation of cannabis use to active shooter incidents is?

>what the correlation of cannabis use to active shooter incidents is?

Holy reefer madness! I'd bet it's probably a lot lower than the correlation between alcohol and drunk fights, murders and spousal abuse. Yet society seems to be perfectly willing to tolerate it.

Re: Heavy marijuana use increases schizophrenia in men, study finds

#50

Post by yamtaddle » Thu, May 04, 2023, 5:32 PM UTC

Analemma_ wrote: post #18

yieldcrv wrote: post #3

I like the idea of capping THC potency (delta-9), what we have now isn't what we the general public aimed to legalize this is just competition keeping up with consumer demand the consequences should fall on the vendors and growers on a licensing perspective, just like alcohol or food vending

I think more important than that is capping the THC/CBD ratio. The first time I took an edible it was pure THC, and even at 15mg it almost gave me a panic attack. For a long time I was baffled that anyone could actually enjoy marijuana, until I tried something with three times as much CBD as THC, and then I got the same enjoyable experience as others seem to. Which makes sense: biologically, THC is the psychosis agon…

15mg is pretty high (LOL) to start. I take edibles daily, mostly as a sleep aid but occasionally recreationally, and have been at it for a couple years, and my tolerance has crept up a bit in that time (damnit), and I'm a big dude, and still, 15mg is like the top of what I ever take. 15mg gets me really high. 8-12mg is where I try to stay most of the time, and that used to be ~5mg.

You don't have to eat the whole edible. The higher-dose ones are a lot cheaper per mg, and I just split 'em.

[EDIT] Oh but you are correct that ones with more of the other compounds from MJ can have very different effects. I never, ever get giggly on straight THC gummies (mostly just tired) but will on some full-spectrum (that is, that went through a process that focused on extracting more than just THC) gummies or vapes. That's the stuff I stick to if I'm aiming for recreational use—for sleepy time, straight THC is fine, though I have found that full spectrum indica extracts can have a better effect on that front at lower THC doses (but availability's spotty and they're more expensive, so I don't usually bother to track down the Good Stuff)