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MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge and IT admins are angry

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Re: MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge and IT admins are angry

#711

Post by rekoil »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #295
dustedcodes wrote: post #6

I have no skin in the game, but even I am starting to think the obvious thing here: Apple and Google own the entire mobile OS market. They could literally destroy Microsoft if they started to hugely degrade the experience of Microsoft products on iOS and Android with dark patterns a la Microsoft. But they don't. So far they were competing by making their own products better. Microsoft needs to think hard how hostile…

I disagree with your premise. I have an iPhone (forced upon me by work) and it's ridiculous how many links still try to open in safari or Apple maps. I've tried to configure it for years and I've literally uninstalled Apple maps, but half the time iPhone keeps wanting me to reinstall it when I click a link or address. And a lot of url links open in safari instead of chrome or Firefox. Same with many other things - I…

Email is the most annoying one. There's an old API that some apps use that always uses Mail.app, regardless of what my "default email client" is set to. SUPER annoying as I only have my work email in Mail.app and it's usually for things like bug reports or news article feedback, you know, things I do on my free time which have nothing to do with work.

The bug report ones is especially annoying as those emails are often pre-populated with a bunch of data that isn't so easy to just copy into a new email in a different mail client, like support attachments, etc.

Re: MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge and IT admins are angry

#712

Post by rekoil »

arendtio wrote: post #709
0x457 wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but Apple offers a neat well maintained garden that is the greatest thing as long as everything you need is there, and you don't eat any apples. MS looks at it and thinks their frat party mansion (3 bedroom duplex) can do the same. Apple gets away with it because that what their target audience want. MS target audience doesn't want it. If I wanted a walled garden - I would use Apple, they clearly know how to mai…

Actually I don't get how Apple always gets away with the sh*t they are doing. All Smartphones on this planet use the same USB-C charging port except iPhones. And as far as I remember, the European Union requires the manufacturers by law to use USB-C, because before the law every phone came with a different power adapter. Next example, OS and browsers: Every Operating System has to offer the user the choice of which b…

> All Smartphones on this planet use the same USB-C charging port except iPhones. And as far as I remember, the European Union requires the manufacturers by law to use USB-C, because before the law every phone came with a different power adapter.

The law you're talking about here specified that the charger itself must have a standard USB-C port. Apple gets away with it because 1. they don't even bundle a charger anymore, and 2. they ship a cable that allows the phone to be connected to a USB-C charger (Lightning to USB-C cable).

The new law that takes effect some time in 2024 for smartphones (amongst other devices) stipulates that the port on the smart device must be USB-C. Under this new law, essentially if a device is large enough then the port must be USB-C.

> Next example, OS and browsers: Every Operating System has to offer the user the choice of which browser they want to use. Except for Apple, they offer a choice of which UI you want to use, but on iOS the browser engine is always Safari (which kills competition hard on iOS devices).

Another new EU law (the Digital Markets Act) takes aim at this specific issue actually.

I get where you're coming from, and yeah sure one could argue that giants like Apple, Google, Microsoft should do better, but in the end they are corporations who will do what is best for their shareholders, as such I am not in the least surprised over actions they take like the ones discussed in your comment and the article that started this discussion.

I think it's great that governmental regulation is finally coming to set the game rules for things like how general purpose operating systems must allow device owners the ability to install their own software (including real actual browsers with their own engines and everything), how communication apps must support cross-network communication upon request, and to standardise how we charge our smart devices.

Re: MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge and IT admins are angry

#713

Post by dathinab »

scrollaway wrote: post #351
kps wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect VSCode is a baited hook. Get enough developers dependent on it, then degrade it on Linux, and offer WSL as close enough to have people switch their OS rather than their editor. With developers on Windows, cloud follows.

Linux desktop is such small fish to Microsoft it would be ridiculous for them to focus on it as competitor right now. If experience gets degraded it’s because of limited testing, not malicious intent. It’s like Oracle suddenly deciding that their greatest competitor is sqlite. The two live in different worlds.

it's not about weather linux desktop is an issue or serious competition

it's about making sure it can't become one even if MS starts doing things which harm customer (accidentally and/or due to customers being dependent on them).

For example look at the steam deck, even with it's success it's neglible small compared to Switch, PS and Xbox, but it still implicitly forced Microsoft to start working on better support in their "windows manager/desktop US" for this kind of devices.

Or they would love to force their app store for apps like Apple did on Mobile, they tried getting there before. But now they can't really threaten Valve that well anymore because Valve can always argue: See gaming on Linux works without us strongly doubling down on it because you forced us. And there are people invested in Steam due to having large libraries, if most of their library works on SteamOs but Steam works no longer on Windows where would they go...?

Re: MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge and IT admins are angry

#714

Post by grey_earthling »

rtsil wrote: post #672
trinsic2 wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL, you are so right on that, average users do not understands the issues at hand about this, we need some kind of movement that better explains the issue.

And yet average users fled IE en masse as soon as they had a (back then) good alternative. There is still hope!

I'm not sure they fled IE as such. They saw a link (advert) on Google that said “make your internet better” and they clicked it.

Yes, some techies actively chose Chrome knowing full-well what the alternatives were, but I'm pretty sure the advertising produced much greater numbers.

(Also, the techies who enthusiastically recommended Chrome were the same ones who enthusiastically recommended Twitter a few years later, and are now enthusiastically recommending Signal — which illustrates the quality of their judgement when it comes to monopolies.)

Re: MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge and IT admins are angry

#715

Post by Ch4otic »

lxgr wrote: post #441
hospitalJail wrote: post #391

When trying to get GPT Bing, I let Microsoft set the defaults like they insisted. It was such an awful experience. >desktop ads >Edge opens, edge ads >Bing default browser, ads >start menu ads More on their products: >Sharepoint, 3 different versions, terrible documentation. Impossible to develop for when you have forum posts describing different software with the same name. >Power Automate, No I don't want drag and…

I also recently installed Edge (on macOS) to give BinGPT a try and almost couldn't believe what I saw. Ads, coupons, rewards everywhere... It truly felt like being transported to the darkest times of the late 90s/early 2000s, with multiple adware toolbars cluttering the IE user interface.

> It truly felt like being transported to the darkest times of the late 90s/early 2000

Exactly what I thought when I saw “Games” under the Edge menu - why can’t a browser just be a browser anymore?

Re: MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge and IT admins are angry

#716

Post by 908B64B197 »

JohnFen wrote: post #655
908B64B197 wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Previous Edge was a complete refactor of IE with a brand new js engine. Extremely lightweight and low power compared to Chrome. Their goal was to be 100% compatible with the modern web. Google started breaking pages as soon as it detected it was running on Edge and not Chrome. Simply changing the user-agent string magically repaired the pages. So MS gave up and forked Chrome.

If that was the reason, surely it would have been quicker and easier to change the default user agent string themselves?

Yes and no. It's part of the reasons.

Another one is a lot of websites would only test on Chrome. So if Chrome implemented a standard in a slightly different way than the spec, it would break on all other browsers.

Re: MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge and IT admins are angry

#717

Post by JohnFen »

908B64B197 wrote: post #716
JohnFen wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that was the reason, surely it would have been quicker and easier to change the default user agent string themselves?

Yes and no. It's part of the reasons. Another one is a lot of websites would only test on Chrome. So if Chrome implemented a standard in a slightly different way than the spec, it would break on all other browsers.

But well-designed websites don't alter their behavior based on the user agent string. They test for capabilities before using them.

Re: MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge and IT admins are angry

#718

Post by JohnFen »

tatersolid wrote: post #696
JohnFen wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think user agent strings were a terrible idea from the get-go, so I'm OK with Microsoft (and everyone else) fudging them this way. I think it'd be even better if everyone used the exact same UA string.

> I think it'd be even better if everyone used the exact same UA string. Then why send a UA string at all? Save the bytes on the wire.

I agree -- I don't think the UA string should exist. But it does, so the next best thing is having everyone send the same string.

Re: MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge and IT admins are angry

#719

Post by JohnFen »

kbenson wrote: post #676
JohnFen wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's sort of like condemning all of the U.S. because one state does something you don't agree with. It's more like condemning all of the US because it has implemented a national policy that only one state really wanted. It doesn't matter that only one state wanted it. It's still national policy and thus fair game to criticize the entire nation for.

Is it a company wide policy that Microsoft apps open links in edge, or a Teams and Edge thing? Do office apps open links in edge? Does VS code? If they do, then I agree with you. If they don't, then I don't, for what should be obvious reasons.

If a company has implemented it in a product that is publicly released, it's a company policy even if only the dev team was responsible for it.

Re: MSFT is forcing Outlook and Teams to open links in Edge and IT admins are angry

#720

Post by nokya »

dustedcodes wrote: post #6

I have no skin in the game, but even I am starting to think the obvious thing here: Apple and Google own the entire mobile OS market. They could literally destroy Microsoft if they started to hugely degrade the experience of Microsoft products on iOS and Android with dark patterns a la Microsoft. But they don't. So far they were competing by making their own products better. Microsoft needs to think hard how hostile…

Microsoft is a schizophrenic company. For each employee who tries to do things well, clean, and respectful of privacy, there is another one with the same amount of power who won't hesitate engaging in the worst tactics (dark UI patterns, fake/ambiguous statements, regular settings resets, etc.) to earn a few more points in a performance objective. Both crowds probably hate each other, but the working conditions are so great when you work there that the "nice" guys will probably always prefer to walk away, rather than engaging into a conflict to try convincing a moron that forcing a specific browser is a very very very bad idea.

This thing of forcing Edge for opening links, it's clearly an idea successfully forced by a small group of bullies upon other employees, and they probably get a reward from the increased Edge traffic/usage.

Ultimately, there is only one person responsible for this toxic culture and it's the CEO.

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