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NYPD urges citizens to buy AirTags to fight surge in car thefts

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Re: NYPD urges citizens to buy AirTags to fight surge in car thefts

#401
post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to carry any phone, among other reasons because I do not want to be tracked 24/7. Now Apple has made it trivial for anyone to buy persistent, highly accurate dystopian stalker gear that could easily be surreptitiously placed on my person or vehicle. Having no phone, I would have no idea. The AirTag tracking system escalates the technological arms race and dramatically expands my threat model. All I want…

First, you can totally carry a phone in airplane mode or a tablet without cellular capabilities. Or you can scan with a tablet from a known location (e.g. the office) and regularly do so. Second, the threat model isn't new. Tiles have had the same capability for a long time. GPS trackers that use cellular to report your location are about as big as an AirTag (although more expensive). But finally, this is something a…

So we're back to, "carry a tracking device if you don't want to get tracked."

Even if I had a phone, or could afford one, then I will still be carrying a tracking device. Do you really think airplane mode will prevent tracking? Apple's AirTag fuckery works even when devices present as in the "off" state! And of course there's no longer any easy way to remove phone batteries now.

I don't want to be tracked by the AirTag snitch network, I don't want to be tracked by a phone carried to prevent AirTag tracking, and finally I don't want to and should not have to carry any tech in order to ensure my safety and rights.

> Second, the threat model isn't new. Tiles have had the same capability for a long time. GPS trackers that use cellular to report your location are about as big as an AirTag (although more expensive).

It is new. Those devices are bigger and use way more power. AirTags turn everyone's iPhone into an automated snitch reporting the precise location of these ultra-low-power beacons. It's an escalation of the technological arms race. But you're right, these tracking devices should all be prohibited items for commercial sale.

> But finally, this is something a lot of people want to have. We need laws to punish their misuse, but ultimately banning them would impact other people's rights.

Laws like those can't prevent misuse, they can only punish, maybe, after misuse. Of course, the violation must be detected first ("buy our tracking products if you don't want to get tracked"). And at which point it's potentially too late for the victim, anyway.

Banning easily-concealable low-power global mesh network snitch devices would not impact other people's rights except to protect them. Where do you get the idea that you have some right to these devices that balances with my right to safety, human dignity, and privacy?

Regulation of commercial products is absolutely par for the course, especially when those products can have such severe negative externalities for people who aren't the users of the products.

A lot of people want cheap, easy access to machine guns. At least in the US, unlike easily-concealable tracking devices we actually do have a right to bear arms--and yet machine guns are not so trivial to obtain. Why is that?

Re: NYPD urges citizens to buy AirTags to fight surge in car thefts

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you have never tried to join a group chat where the other members of the group all have iPhones and use iMessage.

I actively avoid group chats in general, but most everyone I know uses SMS for group chats.

I can tell you right now, if they’re iphone users they probably hate it. Go on. Ask them.

Re: NYPD urges citizens to buy AirTags to fight surge in car thefts

#404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What legal basis do you have for enforcing a $1mil civil penalty on stalkers? I'm not a lawyer, but it seems out of proportion to any damages sustained to Tile and likely unenforceable (not to mention uncollectable)? (FWIW: I think ID verification is a good non-technical deterrent to what is largely a non-techincal problem!)

It’s a terms of service you opt in to. Unclear how well it holds up in court but I dare anyone to try! We will go all out making an example out of people who abuse the system. So far we have not had a single report of misuse of the anti-theft feature.

Real stalkers aren't going to care about a ToS -- they are already intent on violating criminal law. This will likely just push people to use fake/stolen ID and payment information, making it even harder to track and unravel. Your exposure to various fraud comorbidity as a result of this policy is ever likely.

Additionally, most stalkers know their victims, so you are entering into a vast grey area that civil courts do not have prior established case law (vis-a-vis a third party as you are) to adjudicate and for which the burden of proof is on your lawyers who won't have the same powers to subpoena information as is available in criminal matters. It's also unlikely stalkers would have significant assets, making civil enforcement of this policy potentially very costly and time consuming for your company. Making a mistake with an enforcement action or loosing a case would be incredibly poor optics for your company.

Sending a letter to your legal staff for a cursory review and getting their rubber stamp won't change the potential legal outcome for your company or shield you from liability, when (not if) the time comes, and likely opens you to substantial liability should the product be used in the service of a crime.

That said, if I really want to stalk someone your app already provides everything that is needed, and in fact it is currently being used by sex traffickers and domestic violence abusers to track, stalk and exploit their victims en mass [1].

[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2023/04/06/sex-t...

Re: NYPD urges citizens to buy AirTags to fight surge in car thefts

#405
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> well we would assume you were living in a pretty "uptown" neighborhood No. And off plumb. Adjust your priors. (Obviously no doormen.) > where we lived Where? We have so many generic hypotheticals with loose calls for policy. Let the folks who feel the brawn and brunt of crime and law enforcement speak solutions. This topic has lost relevance because it was diluted.

there's a solution to the NYPD being awful? I wasn't aware ? dont say "give them more money" because that's certainly not it

> there's a solution to the NYPD being awful? I wasn't aware

That's my point. I'm don't know what the solution is. But dismissing good cops the way you did certainly isn't one.

> dont say "give them more money" because that's certainly not it

Nobody did. In this entire thread. You made an incorrect assumption and are doubling down on it.

Re: NYPD urges citizens to buy AirTags to fight surge in car thefts

#406
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That person specifically noted and gave you a reference to how those 3rd party tags use Apple's own network. What is the clear reference? One person said they searched GPS tracker tags on Amazon and the other gave a link to Apple’s licensing program which in turn links to NDAs and contractual agreements as well a multi-step design and approval process. There seem to be some knock-offs claiming they work with Find M…

https://chipolo.net/en-us/products/category/chipolo-spot https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HQF72ZM/A/chipolo-card-sp... I own one, and it works just like an airtag and appears in the find my app. It doesn't have precision feature but everything else works(like using the apple/iphone network to find it)

[deleted]

Re: NYPD urges citizens to buy AirTags to fight surge in car thefts

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By far the biggest barrier is group chats with others who are on iphone. Not only is the experience pretty broken for you, it essentially ends up breaking the experience for everyone else. This AirTags example just highlights that to a large portion of the US populace, Android is essentially a joke.

How is the experience broken for anybody? I've been on group chats with my wife and parents (all iPhoners) for years and it's totally fine. I recently got a Pixel and now even the stupid emotes display properly (though it was easy to know what they meant before). I had an iphone forever ago (when my parents were paying for it), and I don't recall the experience of group chats being notably better or worse. It's more…

In mixed group chats with iPhone and Android, it is not that rare of an occurrence to have issues with texts not going through / being delayed. I also can't emote without a wall of text showing up, or edit messages after sending.

None of those are issues if everyone is blue.

Re: NYPD urges citizens to buy AirTags to fight surge in car thefts

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you claim 20% of US families, or about 25 million use your service. Your website is showing me "502 Bad Gateway" right now.

he, and his company, are blatantly lying. they are simple scammers - much like the emails you get about penis pills. 20% of US families haven't even heard of his service. heck, not even 2%, not even 2% of the families who work in tech. US-wide, Maybe 20% know what an airtag is. go to walmart, ask anyone there if they've heard of.. well, I forgot what his service is called already. best leave it at that. something abo…

Life360 is very common in the area that I’m in to track/keep tabs on children. Go to Walmart, they might not know. Go to a highschool and I’ll bet every single one of them knows what it is. Crypto has nothing to do with this.

Re: NYPD urges citizens to buy AirTags to fight surge in car thefts

#409

I wanted to try to understand more context behind the "'Why would anyone have one [an Android phone]?' Mayor Adams responded." quote. Here is the relevant video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vuw72THyXsQ&t=949s So, I get that he's making a joke, but given that everyone just laughs and there is no follow up, it's clear to me it's one of those "The reason this joke is funny is because I actually think it's true" joke…

I've genuinely never gotten any flack about the whole imessage vs sms thing, but I've also thrown in the towel for one particular reason: OS updates. Most Android manufacturers only give you 2 major versions, maybe 3 in the best case. With Samsung being the only one I know of giving you 4. iPhone supports major OS version updates for a lot longer than most any android phone.

I see this got downvoted but no one offered any counter argument?

Re: NYPD urges citizens to buy AirTags to fight surge in car thefts

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have zero issues with running an Android, and I honestly see iPhones as being disadvantaged, personally. There's not a single thing I can't do on an Android that I could on an iPhone.

Then you have never tried to join a group chat where the other members of the group all have iPhones and use iMessage.

No, the people I care to talk to all use Telegram, or have been willing to join my XMPP instance.
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