You count up from 1 in steps of 2 and never stop.
Infinity is the process of this never-ending count.
331–340 of 398 posts
You count up from 1 in steps of 2 and never stop.
Infinity is the process of this never-ending count.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
> you won't always have a calculator at hand. I do though. I still blow minds when I put my iPhone calculator in scientific mode. Math education is important for many reasons. But teaching it as a practical survival skill using no tools does a disservice to the student. Either it is useful as a problem solving exercise or it is a practical skill that should take advantage of tools. "Just memorize this stuff" isn't us…
Nah. As somebody who ends up doing a ton of mental math, I think it's valuable. Yes, they should also learn how to use tools. But developing a feel for numbers is valuable, and I think that is much harder to do if one always relies on a calculator. (And yes, of course, this should be learned in a way that doesn't involve the kids hating it. But that's possible.)
The way I would explain it to a 6 year old would be like this: Infinity isn't a number really, it's a concept, like the word many or the word few. If someone says they have many of something, you don't think is that odd or even you just know they have a lot of it. Infinity is kind of like that, it explains the idea of things going on forever, not an exact quantity of things like the number 10 or 11.
My 6 and 7 yo's call infinity the "endless number". Well, at least it is a NaN number :) PS: they seem to _know_ that endless*endless > endless but do not dare to admit it
> Infinity + Infinity
Infinity
> Infinity - Infinity
NaN
> Infinity == Infinity
true
> NaN == NaN
false
The fun thing: NaN to the power of zero (because technically the type of NaN is a ... number) > NaN ** 0
1
> typeof(NaN)
'number'
By the same logic, NaN is also even because > NaN + NaN
NaN
but i think it's better not explain that to your six year old...Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not necessarily:) A circle is endless, and yet certainly isn't infinite.
Infinite literally means ‘without end’. Finite means ‘something that finishes’. Infinite means ‘something that does not finish’.
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There are, and it turns out that this is a significant mathematical concept. The integers between 0 and infinity are defined as "countably infinite". Other infinities are considered countably infinite, or the "same" infinity, if and only if you can arrange it in a list such that each item in the list pairs to an integer in our 0 to infinity list. So the set of even numbers is countably infinite because for every i th…
"Countably infinite" makes zero sense to me. Whatever method you use to generate your decimals, you can just slap an integer on each step of the way. You'll never run out of integers. I'll put Cantor and his proof in a box, tell him to give me his fancy decimals quick as he can, and I can match each one with an integer no problem. And pairing one infinite list with another infinite list doesn't make either one any mo…
A mathematician compares the size of two sets of stuff by pairing off items from each set, but this is not a mechanical process taking a finite or even unbounded amount of time: they just need to show such a mapping exists or that nonexistence would lead to a contradiction; they don't need to actually carry out the process mechanically. By definition (according to mathematicians), something is countable if it is the same size as the set of natural numbers {0, 1, 2, ...} or smaller, and "countably infinite" just means it is the same size as the naturals (and not smaller, which would make it finite).
A small minority of mathematicians hold the position that proof-by-contradiction is not good enough, and that you really do need to positively prove something. They are called intuitionists.
Presumably, an even smaller minority of mathematicians hold the position that this proof must (theoretically) be able to be carried out in a mechanical manner. They're some flavor of constructivists, but maybe they're better called programmers. <- This is where you are.
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My 6 and 7 yo's call infinity the "endless number". Well, at least it is a NaN number :) PS: they seem to _know_ that endless*endless > endless but do not dare to admit it
there is a difference between infinity and not a number, NaN isn't event equal to itself, in nodejs you get: > Infinity + Infinity Infinity > Infinity - Infinity NaN > Infinity == Infinity true > NaN == NaN false The fun thing: NaN to the power of zero (because technically the type of NaN is a ... number) > NaN ** 0 1 > typeof(NaN) 'number' By the same logic, NaN is also even because > NaN + NaN NaN but i think it's…
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On the one hand I get why that is - the calculus notion of infinity is the one that tends to be useful in applied math - on the other hand it's a shame because the set theoretic notion of infinity has more to offer to someone trying to ponder the nature of the infinite. Or put another way, "what's ∞ + 1" basically invites the non-answer "that's not a well-formed question" whereas "what's ω + 1" gives you a whole inte…
I would argue that "that's not a well-formed question" is a correct answer, not a non-answer. ...and that the intellectual thread you are pulling on is a (more) artificial notion, constructed by set theorists for the sake of set theorists, not for the sake of counting or measuring in any real sense.
Or maybe put another way, taking the idea that infinity is just infinity makes a lot of sense when you’re primarily considering non-infinite numbers. When you’re primarily considering the concept of infinity and what you can do with it mathematically though, using systems that let you describe infinity with more nuance makes a lot of sense.
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there is a difference between infinity and not a number, NaN isn't event equal to itself, in nodejs you get: > Infinity + Infinity Infinity > Infinity - Infinity NaN > Infinity == Infinity true > NaN == NaN false The fun thing: NaN to the power of zero (because technically the type of NaN is a ... number) > NaN ** 0 1 > typeof(NaN) 'number' By the same logic, NaN is also even because > NaN + NaN NaN but i think it's…
Huh. Most of those make sense to me, but infinity == infinity being true definitely feels like risky business. Algebraic limits is full of even some pretty trivial scenarios where infinity divided by a lesser-infinity turns out to be a real number— those cases where the two infinities are definitely not equal to each other.
> 1/0
Infinity
But python throws a divide by zero error: >>> 1/0
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "", line 1, in
ZeroDivisionError: division by zero
Still you do have infinity and nan in python - because these are part of the floating point spec. >>> float('inf') - float('inf')
nan
>>> float('inf') == float('inf')
True
>>> NAN=float('inf') - float('inf')
>>> NAN == NAN
False
However that's not mathematics, it's computers (these are even stranger...)I have my own little programming language - PYX [1] - and i don't allow this madness (even if it is a violation of the floating point spec ;-)
pyx
> mathconst.Infinity - mathconst.Infinity
Error: results in 'not a number' - that's not allowed here
#(1) mathconst.Infinity - mathconst.Infinity
|....................^
> 1/0
Error: Can't divide by zero
#(1) 1/0
|..^
[1] PYX - https://github.com/MoserMichael/jscriptparse - it's supposed to be an educational programming language, where I am trying to have detailed error messages, my side project.I want to know if there are more decimal numbers between 0 and 1 than there are integers between 0 and infinity.
- No, even if you include all the decimals which can be individually described in any notation whatsoever.
You can disregard all the arguments in the other comments about whether "decimals" includes fractions like 1/7 using decimal repeat notation, or irrationals described by a formula like sqrt(2), or transcendentals from mathematical definitions like pi and e.
Those are interesting and deep rabbit holes, but they don't change the answer to your question, because it is still "no" with all of those. Even with all possible definitions which can be written in any symbolic language. This is because the set of all possible definitions which can be written can be enumerated systematically in a list, and mapped 1:1 to all the integers.
- Yes, if you include all the other numbers in the range 0 to 1 which are not ones you can individually describe. Most real numbers in the range 0 to1 are actually these type of "individually undescribables". But I can't point out an individual one, of course.
The "real numbers" contain these. They are present due to a consequence of logic that keeps regular math simpler and more consistent than it would be otherwise.
(Aside: The question of whether 1/3 = 0.3(repeating), times 3 = 0.9(repeating), is equal to 1 is an example of choosing the simpler and more consistent logic. Of course 1/3 times 3 is 1 so 0.9(repeating) must be defined as equal to 1, or fractions wouldn't be consistent with decimals...)
But the rationals (fractions), algebraic numbers (solutions to polynomials with integer coefficients, such as square roots), computables (numbers you can define by any algorithm), and even some types of uncomputables (such as all Chaitin's constants for all enumeration rules), and all mathematically individually definable transcendental numbers like pi/4 and e/3 do not contain these.
It follows that all the "individually undescribables" in the real numbers can only, conceptually, be imagined as infinitely long decimals with no repeats and no pattern to the digits definable by a finite-length rule in any language. You obviously can't write one of them down, you can only conceptualise what one already written down might look like. (For example a spiral of digits of ever descreasing size would fit one in finite area.) And we can only reason about them as a set by logical construction.
If you were to pick a random real number uniformly (ie. fairly) from the range 0 to 1 by picking a sequence of random decimal digits, it would ɓe one of these infinitely long decimals with probability 1. Because simple random values from a continuous range are like this, perhaps this explains why they are actually a natural and not unreasonable concept.
So the answer depends on whether your meaning of "decimal numbers" means the "real numbers" in the continuous range 0 to 1, or just certain ways of writing numbers. From the other comments, evidently some people include all sort of things in their idea of "decimals" including 1/3 = 0.333...(repeating) and the exact value of pi/4 for example, not just finite strings of digits. While other people think of "decimals" as being only strings of digits you can write down, so they would not include the exact value of pi/4 for example. These two meanings of "decimal numbers" give different answers to your question.
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Is addition defined _by_ set theory, or is set theory one way of defining addition? If it's the later, then there could be other ways of defining addition that don't have the same results for infinity (because our math system doesn't really "work" for infinity, or 0, depending on the circumstances). I am in no way a mathematician. My question about the definition of addition as it relates to set theory is just that;…
It's the latter; I'm also not a mathematician, just a guy who worked through Halmos's "Naive Set Theory" in intense detail... But your question actually hints at my most profound takeaway from that whole book. I think what you're saying is right, AND that foundations-of-mathematics folks spent a long intense period searching for different set theory axioms that did NOT lead to transfinite numbers. But anything anyone…
I think we often end up at the end of logical thought processes back at the original question - how can we observe and describe a system that we are inherently a part of?