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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#991

Post by schrectacular »

culturestate wrote: post #688
schrectacular wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in China for a decade and never once saw an electric stove.

I lived in mainland China and Hong Kong for nearly a decade and had electric induction stoves in every apartment. Anecdotal evidence is, as ever, weak evidence.

Interesting. Maybe it's a north/south thing? I was in Beijing. Or maybe it was an affluence thing? I can totally imagine an indication stove being a status symbol. But they are far from ubiquitous and common in the country overall, of that I can assure you.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#992

Post by schrectacular »

tptacek wrote: post #640
schrectacular wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in China for a decade and never once saw an electric stove.

I've lived in Oak Park, IL for over a decade, shopping for houses several times, and have never seen an electric stove. What's your point? What's clearly the case is that homes in China do not generally have the ultra-powered gas wok burners that restaurants do, which is what people are talking about when they talk about what's distinctive about cooking on a wok.

My point was that in my experience they are far less common in China than in the US, as you were claiming. I guess one of us could go look up stats bit given the cost of the item and the relative affluence of the countries I seriously doubt they are close. What was your point in bringing up that they were similarly ubiquitous in both places?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#993

Post by culturestate »

schrectacular wrote: post #991
culturestate wrote: post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in mainland China and Hong Kong for nearly a decade and had electric induction stoves in every apartment. Anecdotal evidence is, as ever, weak evidence.

Interesting. Maybe it's a north/south thing? I was in Beijing. Or maybe it was an affluence thing? I can totally imagine an indication stove being a status symbol. But they are far from ubiquitous and common in the country overall, of that I can assure you.

I lived in Shanghai and Shenzhen, and I think it was mostly indicative of how new the building was. Anything built after ~2000 usually had the option of plumbed gas or electric, but in older buildings I saw a lot of those standalone bottled gas hobs with the purpose-built alcove in the kitchen.

In Hong Kong, it was really down to personal preference. My first apartment came with a normal resistive stove that the landlord swapped to an induction cooktop at my request, and that building (on HK island) didn't even have plumbed gas. It'd been disconnected during a renovation years before I moved in.

> But they are far from ubiquitous and common in the country overall, of that I can assure you.

I actually agree with you here, I was just making a point about the precariousness of using personal anecdata to support a position as broad as "people in China rarely have electric stoves." In a country that big, even the outliers make for an enormous group.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#994

Post by carlosjobim »

unethical_ban wrote: post #185
carlosjobim wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the day comes that gas stoves actually get banned (either forcefully removed or by banning the distribution of gas), your comment will again be: "This shouldn't be surprising, sensational or controversial."

>banning the distribution of gas At some point that will happen, or else it will simply be so inconvenient to use gas it will be impractical for anything except remote places with propane tanks. Why is that shocking? Are you also upset that you no longer have easy access to whale oil for your lighting, or a market for steam-powered sedans? Yes, someday in the relatively far future (decades) gas stoves will be a novel…

I'm not writing this response to you, but to other people who might read the conversation.

Whale oil was replaced because of cheaper and superior synthetic alternatives. CRT Television were replaced because of more practical flat panels.

There are no advantages to electrical stoves compared to gas stoves. Gas stoves are far superior to electrical for cooking, and for operating both electrical and gas are equivalently practical. The energy cost of gas vs electrical is unimportant for home use, and in professional use you will use gas stoves.

Both electricity and gas (in general) are equally modern (or old) technologies, being a couple of hundred years old. Replacing gas with electricity is in no sense progression, it's just different tech.

Induction stoves are much better than conventional electric, but they are a far cry from gas stoves, which have all the benefits of induction and none of the drawbacks.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#995

Post by incangold »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #895
slashdev wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning gas for heating has a reasonable climate change argument. In Vancouver heating systems in new buildings will have to be zero emission soon. That makes some sense at least. Banning it for cooking seems to be another case of focusing on things that don’t move the needle. Meanwhile coal power plants continue to operate. There are less than 2500 major coal power plants worldwide. Why don’t we band together, mass…

54% of Vancouver's CO2 emissions come from natural gas home heating so yep, banning it makes tons of sense. I couldn't find the source but I think there actually might be a carve out to continue to allow for natural gas for cooking, but in practice, no one but the foolish super rich (or perhaps some professional commissary kitchens) is going to go to the bother of doing a nat gas hookup for for a stove, so gas stoves…

Even in commercial cooking, gas is on the way out. I help run a catering business and at least in our kitchens, induction is far preferred to gas. It’s not ideal for wok cooking as understand it (without a specialist stove), but for everything else the speed and control of induction is unmatched.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#996

Post by iamdamian »

kerkeslager wrote: post #970
iamdamian wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1% or 28% of global CO2 emissions, if this statistic is even true, is huge. 1% of 28%. If we trust that number, that means that the best we can hope for from this change is 0.0028 (0.3%, rounding up) of global emissions. That number is a ceiling : it assumes that not only do new buildings not have gas stoves, but that all old gas stoves in the United States are removed as well. This negligible (IMO) improvement com…

> One of my favorite climate change books is How to Avoid a Climate Disaster, by Bill Gates, in which he outlines where the biggest opportunities lie. His approach seems far more practical and likely to make a dent in the problem. This is one of your favorite books, and it literally, explicitly disagrees with what you're saying? One of the core points of that book is that reducing emissions is not enough--we have to…

One of the core points of the book, if I recall correctly, is that regulations should be made in practical, data-driven ways and "bring everyone along for the ride". Without this approach, we will fail.

This means starting with high-impact changes that people will buy into, and prove to them that the change is worth it. Removing gas stoves is a terrible move at this stage.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#997

Post by PM_me_your_math »

tcfhgj wrote: post #433
PM_me_your_math wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we wanted to live like the rest of the world, we wouldn't have started our own country.

Ironically you will achieve the opposite fueling climate change

Every single climate change prediction (hundreds of them) made since the 1960s have failed to materialize.

...But I'm the crazy one since I refuse to run around like a chicken without a head.

The church of climatology and latter day taxes is full of shit. It has always been full of shit. It was always and shall always be a power play.

I know for sure that earth's climate changes, but also know for sure that taxes and economic ham-stringing isn't going to influence it in any way, shape, or form.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#998

Post by stevehawk »

brewdad wrote: post #638
stevehawk wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i don't follow your argument on #2. i also dont understand why we can't have legislation that says "you can only have a stove cooktop if its properly vented".. In the winter, when i lose electricity, i can run my house on a small amount of power because i have natural gas heat, cooktop, clothes dryer, and two natural gas fireplaces. I'm not particularly interested in giving up that safety or luxury.

Good thing you won’t have to. No one is talking about forcing you to rip out your gas fireplace. You simply won’t be able to replace it when it breaks down 30 years from now.

I'm not sure why you think that makes me feel any better? The problem still exists, you've just kicked the can down the road. I'm also not excited about ripping out walls in a fairly large house just to run 10/3 so i can get a 240v connection to an electric cooktop at some point in the future.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#999

Post by arp242 »

schrectacular wrote: post #991
culturestate wrote: post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in mainland China and Hong Kong for nearly a decade and had electric induction stoves in every apartment. Anecdotal evidence is, as ever, weak evidence.

Interesting. Maybe it's a north/south thing? I was in Beijing. Or maybe it was an affluence thing? I can totally imagine an indication stove being a status symbol. But they are far from ubiquitous and common in the country overall, of that I can assure you.

I know absolutely nothing about the type of stoves they use in China, or in the US for that matter, but remember that experiences may go out of date quicker than you'd might expect.

Before I moved to the UK I had literally never seen an electric stove in my life, much less used one, as gas was ubiquitous in the Netherlands. I'm sure you could find it, but it was rare. In the last few years things changed rapidly though, and when I moved back last year there were a number of apartments that had electric or induction) stoves.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#1000

Post by [deleted] »

lobocinza wrote: post #939
ryan-allen wrote: post #928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Induction is the best of both worlds, but you do have to have induction pans. Stainless steel last a lifetime, and are not _that_ expensive, and you can also use cast iron!

> Stainless steel last a lifetime Yes but not the teflon coating.

[deleted]
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