Never mind houses, what about gas/petrol? It always seems to be more expensive in dense cities, even though there is greater competition and economies of scale (e.g. delivery of the fuel to the stations) while it tends to be cheaper in rural middle-of-nowheres, even if there is no immediate local competition. The cost of land and labor is higher, sure, but even the stations that are owned rather than rented don't see…
Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
71–80 of 177 posts
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#72Why is it that many of the same people who argue against more roads and more parking lots on the basis of induced demand preventing more roads from meaningfully solving congestion seem to think that in the densest and most competitive cities that adding units will necessarily make hosing affordable?
Well, partially because induced demand is a little bit of a meme, and partially because it's actually different.
See, if you have a city that's dense enough that transit actually represents a high share of trips, it's possible that increasing road capacity will cause people to switch from transit to driving, which is essentially a wash for economic activity, and quickly replenishes congestion. In these very dense areas it's more appropriate to build infrastructure for other modes of transportation — just as it makes more sense to build apartments instead of houses.
But if you have a city where trips are already almost always by car, then any induced demand actually represents a new trip that wasn't taken before. This must be distinguished from the true Braess paradox [1], which is rare. More trips usually mean that you actually improved people's lives, which is a good thing.
The thing is that some modern urbanist activists just absolutely hate cars, so they exaggerate the case against roads. There are still other reasons to avoid expanding the road network: it costs money, it creates pollution, it causes crash risks, it drives sprawl and balkanization, and it contributes to impermeable ground cover and urban heat islands. Parking lots do all of this and make life more difficult for people who are walking. But the notion among some urbanists that building roads does absolutely no good is simply wrong. The literature on the economic benefits of road construction is extensive.
I think that people who study the issue are leery of alienating their already tiny support base by gainsaying them about this, though. I personally like to point out that replacing intersections with roundabouts can achieve most of the goals of road widening while improving safety and pollution. Strong Towns in its early days emphasized building roads in such a way that all built capacity would be used as effectively as possible, but some more recent activists have been unhappy that they aren't more stridently anti-car.
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#73Why is it that many of the same people who argue against more roads and more parking lots on the basis of induced demand preventing more roads from meaningfully solving congestion seem to think that in the densest and most competitive cities that adding units will necessarily make hosing affordable?
Everything causes induced demand. Expansion of bike lanes and public transit also causes induced demand for these, but at least in the end you end up with more efficient transport. The increased efficiency/throughput gives you a better chance of outpacing demand growth. With housing you also have a better chance of outpacing demand growth if you build densely enough. Even that's never enough to meet all the demand, a…
I feel like one important driver of demand is missing here: investment properties.
It's no secret that at one moment AirBnB essentially took over tourist hotspots in the most attractive cities, jacking prices up to ridiculous levels.
There's a building in my neighborhood that consists of so-called "microapartments" - 18-25m2 units, which on the lower end, from a legal standpoint, wouldn't even be considered housing today.
Of course half of them are empty because they weren't really meant to be occupied in the first place.
This sort of demand is essentially boundless because while even a billionaire can only drive one car at a time, they can easily own thousands of investment properties and not even bother to rent them out if the market is hot enough.
Of course regulations follow, but shitty housing built with investors in mind doesn't just disappear overnight.
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#74Sure
>So I don’t understand why Matt believes that building a few new apartments in some city - a very small move along that spectrum - would do anything other than make local prices go up.
Huh? Other than friends, none of the previously mentioned amenities are provided by apartment buildings.
Adding commercial real estate to a city adds jobs and amenities that make it more desirable, and thus more expensive.
Adding more housing does not.
That said, adding more housing raises the demand for commercial real estate (more available workers and customers), hence the cycle that leads to very dense, very expensive places like Manhattan. Strictly speaking though, adding apartments alone isn't enough to keep that cycle going.
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#75The way that an urban economist would put it is that fundamentally cities are job markets. I would put it a little more broadly and say that cities are opportunities markets. For that reason housing in a dense urban environment will never be as affordable as housing out in rural North Dakota.
If you build more housing in a city, more people move there, and the city becomes more desirable as a result, is the city better or worse off for having built the housing?
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because the characteristics are different. Denser housing is very efficient, in the sense that it requires less infrastructure spend. Roads are just not very efficient - you need to spend a lot of money to get the same result as a transit line etc (and that’s after ignoring the fact that roads have lots of other expenses to the user that transit does not). People want to live in dense, well-serviced cities, and they…
I don't really follow. The idea for roads is that congestion moderates the utility of roads, so over a wide range of capacities roads will remain congested or even become more congested as you add roads, since if you build more you make the roads more useful (reaching more places faster, through better connections or increased capacity) and so people will use them more, potentially resulting in more congestion but al…
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#77Isn't the obvious arrow here that high prices drives density? The fact that NYC is the densest and most expensive seems to be an obvious story of high prices incentivizing people to build up. The question is whether or not an old building being replaced by a tower or a single family house will lead to more expensive housing throughout the city. I still am confused as to how density would hurt locally here.
You might as well ask how cities get started and grow larger. Contrast with farmers.
A positive feedback effect will keep going until there’s negative feedback counteracting it. That’s almost tautological. The specifics will be more interesting.
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#78I feel like this (along with many discussions about urban housing) slightly misses the real issue. A lot of these discussions center around how to make housing affordable in cities and whether denser construction leads to lower housing costs or higher housing costs. But cities don't exist to minimize housing costs. They exist to maximize opportunities: job opportunities, dating opportunities, friendship opportunities…
Initially, geographic advantage (such as being near harbour, river, or some other geographic feature) gives a settlement that's not yet a city a big advantage in attracting more people there. This in turn, forces the city to grow as more people cram in.
To artificially build denser by policy doesn't produce opportunities - those opportunities would have to be there first! And it's this "expensiveness" of creating more accomodation in the city that causes the city to expand.
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even if it didn’t slow the price increases - just the fact that building more housing means that more people get to live where they want to live- isn’t that a good thing and enough reason to build? And as you said, the neighbourhood gets improved - isn’t that a good thing? Or are you saying that the solution to the housing crisis is to make cities as inhospitable as possible such that people are forced to live in the…
I am not against building more. I am simply saying that if you look at the data, there is no evidence what so ever that building more decreases the price of housing. What it does is slow the price increases, but the very demand that is driving price increases was generated by the density, that is exacerbated by building more. We need a better metric. If you have some number to describe the quality of a city, perhaps…
If you build 100 houses, but 1000 people move there, you can say "Oh look building more houses didn't help, prices still went up". It's not that building more didn't help, it's that you didn't do it enough. The obvious answer is to do it more, not to ... stop building houses as if that is going to bring prices down.
Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices
#80I feel like this (along with many discussions about urban housing) slightly misses the real issue. A lot of these discussions center around how to make housing affordable in cities and whether denser construction leads to lower housing costs or higher housing costs. But cities don't exist to minimize housing costs. They exist to maximize opportunities: job opportunities, dating opportunities, friendship opportunities…
I think you got it the wrong way around - cities _form_ around opportunities, rather than produce them. Initially, geographic advantage (such as being near harbour, river, or some other geographic feature) gives a settlement that's not yet a city a big advantage in attracting more people there. This in turn, forces the city to grow as more people cram in. To artificially build denser by policy doesn't produce opportu…