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Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

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Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#61

Post by [deleted] »

maxsilver wrote: post #50
s1artibartfast wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Density doesn't drive price. Nobody pays more for "density". Density and price are both simply measures that track other desirable factors like jobs. It is correlation, not causation.

> Nobody pays more for "density". You do, actually, pay more for "density". Moving things closer together, incurs extra costs (Even ignoring all other factors). Building codes have to be stricter (for equivalent safety levels), when buildings are closer together. Walls and insulation need more expensive materials (for equivalent sound dampening levels), when buildings are closer together. Insurance rates get higher (…

[deleted]

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#62

Post by knallfrosch »

I think the post falls into the trap that many others have done too. Density, private equity ratio, less zoning, less regulation..

If people want affordable housing, affordable housing needs to be built. It's housing that kinda sucks, accomodations that aren't attractive, streets that aren't safe, neighbours that are noisy, metro stops that are far away, plumbing that breaks, windows that aren't et al.

If it's attractive, it will be expensive. That's how pricing works.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#63

Post by s1artibartfast »

maxsilver wrote: post #50
s1artibartfast wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Density doesn't drive price. Nobody pays more for "density". Density and price are both simply measures that track other desirable factors like jobs. It is correlation, not causation.

> Nobody pays more for "density". You do, actually, pay more for "density". Moving things closer together, incurs extra costs (Even ignoring all other factors). Building codes have to be stricter (for equivalent safety levels), when buildings are closer together. Walls and insulation need more expensive materials (for equivalent sound dampening levels), when buildings are closer together. Insurance rates get higher (…

What I mean is that basically nobody looks at two options and desires the more dense one simply because they find density attractive.

If offered to rent a large home on a 1/4 acre in downtown Manhattan, or a dense condo for the same price, almost everyone would choose the less dense option.

People want space, and put up with density because they have limited money and like the location.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#64

Post by s1artibartfast »

endisneigh wrote: post #32
s1artibartfast wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Density doesn't drive price. Nobody pays more for "density". Density and price are both simply measures that track other desirable factors like jobs. It is correlation, not causation.

agreed that it's correlation. however that's all you're going to get. no one is going to run a city wide experiment in this way. however if you look at the trend it's clear that cities have seen higher median price increases than suburbs. you can search yourself.

Cities have a long list of attractive qualities that drive prices up. Being in a tiny box with high density is not one of them. Nobody is going to choose the 500 ft apartment downtown when they could have price.

Every city has already run this natural experiment. You have units that are high density and low density that are completely paid off. People will pay more for a larger space in an urban center. If people wanted density for its own sake, rent would be higher for a tiny apartment in a large house in the same location. It is not the density that they want, it is the short commute and high paid job. This is what I mean by causality.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#65

Post by lukas099 »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #63
maxsilver wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody pays more for "density". You do, actually, pay more for "density". Moving things closer together, incurs extra costs (Even ignoring all other factors). Building codes have to be stricter (for equivalent safety levels), when buildings are closer together. Walls and insulation need more expensive materials (for equivalent sound dampening levels), when buildings are closer together. Insurance rates get higher (…

What I mean is that basically nobody looks at two options and desires the more dense one simply because they find density attractive. If offered to rent a large home on a 1/4 acre in downtown Manhattan, or a dense condo for the same price, almost everyone would choose the less dense option. People want space, and put up with density because they have limited money and like the location.

They don't like the density, but they like the location?

Usually, liking the location means you like that it's close to other things, right? In other words, you like the density.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#66

Post by s1artibartfast »

lukas099 wrote: post #65
s1artibartfast wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I mean is that basically nobody looks at two options and desires the more dense one simply because they find density attractive. If offered to rent a large home on a 1/4 acre in downtown Manhattan, or a dense condo for the same price, almost everyone would choose the less dense option. People want space, and put up with density because they have limited money and like the location.

They don't like the density, but they like the location? Usually, liking the location means you like that it's close to other things, right? In other words, you like the density.

They are not synonyms.

Location means being close to things you like. Those things can be, but are not always other humans. you might like a location because it is beautiful, by the ocean, mountains, or a short commute.

I might like a location because it is close to a high paid job, but hate the population density. That is to say, population density can be a negative attribute of a location.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#67

Post by foogazi »

knallfrosch wrote: post #62

I think the post falls into the trap that many others have done too. Density, private equity ratio, less zoning, less regulation.. If people want affordable housing, affordable housing needs to be built. It's housing that kinda sucks, accomodations that aren't attractive, streets that aren't safe, neighbours that are noisy, metro stops that are far away, plumbing that breaks, windows that aren't et al. If it's attrac…

Can affordable housing be built on expensive land ?

Substitute desirability for expensive and it becomes clearer

Density around desirability can super-charge it

Everybody wants to get closer to it

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#68

Post by ripley12 »

knallfrosch wrote: post #62

I think the post falls into the trap that many others have done too. Density, private equity ratio, less zoning, less regulation.. If people want affordable housing, affordable housing needs to be built. It's housing that kinda sucks, accomodations that aren't attractive, streets that aren't safe, neighbours that are noisy, metro stops that are far away, plumbing that breaks, windows that aren't et al. If it's attrac…

The end game of this line of thinking is "we need to make cities worse to make them more affordable." It's not great.

> If it's attractive, it will be expensive. That's how pricing works.

No. Prices are set by both supply and demand, and you're only considering demand.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#69

Post by boogoob »

It has different effects on different time scales.

Short term, the supply for a specific area increases while other factors are basically constant, exerting downward pressure on prices.

Long term, the positive effects of density increase the desirability of the area, pushing prices up.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#70

Post by [deleted] »

colmmacc wrote: post #54

Never mind houses, what about gas/petrol? It always seems to be more expensive in dense cities, even though there is greater competition and economies of scale (e.g. delivery of the fuel to the stations) while it tends to be cheaper in rural middle-of-nowheres, even if there is no immediate local competition. The cost of land and labor is higher, sure, but even the stations that are owned rather than rented don't see…

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