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Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

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Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#51
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then why are the places with the most units the most expensive? Because the most people want to live there and population is growing? There are plenty of high density old towns all over Italy that are dirt cheap because nobody wants to live there anymore. You can buy a whole house for $10 in a town built for such high population densities that streets are a meter wide.

indeed! which is my point. density does not make it cheaper.

Dense housing also doesn’t make it more expensive either.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize he is arguing for that but I think its pretty silly to have the chart there showing the correlation if so. He does address the point I made in the article but I think he dismisses it too fast without much evidence.

Ok I see what you mean

I suppose to expound on my point more - the graph is by people not housing units. Presumably if a cheap city, like Detroit, had a bunch of unused units the graph would not credit it for the built-in density because if its not being used.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#53
>Imaginary graph of how price as a function of density would have to look

But price is not a function of density!

You think building more apartments in Cumberland, MD will increase prices, or decrease prices? I should point out: Cumberland is already a very densely built city. Its inner urban geography is not unlike Oakland. It just happens to be in a long, painful period of decline. So many of those buildings are empty.

The answer is pretty obvious, here. Prices would likely drop. The "induced demand" is caused by economic success, not density itself. Plenty of dense cities have declined. (Cumberland isn't even that cold! And it has legal marijuana! And it's close to ski resorts! Eat your hearts out, armchair prognosticators!)

>we find that indeed, the denser an area, the higher its house prices

The data in this graph skew California cities upward because their suburbs are not part of their core urban areas — Concord/Walnut Creek is considered separate from the Bay Area, as is Dublin/Pleasanton — while cities outside of California are more likely to be connected. This is due to mountains intersecting dense urban geography in California, which doesn't happen in most other major cities (but Miami is constrained by swamps and New York does hit mountains to its north). But there are other unusual forces on housing prices in California (Proposition 13, construction difficulties), and without the major California cities the correlation becomes much weaker, before we even consider reverse causation.

>No; I think the missing insight is that there’s some pool of geographically mobile Americans1 who are looking for new housing (or who might start looking if the right situation presented itself). These people have various combinations of preferences and requirements. One common pattern is to prefer any big city - they would be happy to live in Seattle, or NYC, or the Bay, if the opportunity came up.

High decadal growth rates in Nashville, Charleston SC, Fayetteville AK, Boise, Jacksonville and Bend among other places put the lie to this. There are certainly "trends", but they aren't limited to big cities, and they don't really affect all big cities: the Los Angeles metro (of all places!) grew a measly 3% from 2010-20. Surely LA's high prices aren't primarily driven by a growth rate just a little higher than that of Pittsburgh.

There might be some induced demand from certain kinds of housing construction in certain contexts, but this blog post is a long way from demonstrating any such effects. The most well-justified negative effect I've heard of from new housing construction is that businesses serving poorer populations are closed due to increasing commercial rents and competition from businesses serving the new clientele. And this can increase the cost of living for local residents, as well as causing job losses (even if employment statistics improve). What we do know is that sometimes people are worse off after construction happens (hence the uproar in the first place), and unfortunately I don't think this kind of 10000-feet analysis brings us closer to understanding why.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#54
Never mind houses, what about gas/petrol? It always seems to be more expensive in dense cities, even though there is greater competition and economies of scale (e.g. delivery of the fuel to the stations) while it tends to be cheaper in rural middle-of-nowheres, even if there is no immediate local competition. The cost of land and labor is higher, sure, but even the stations that are owned rather than rented don't seem to be much cheaper.

People in cities have higher incomes, and sellers - whether it's gas, rent, or property - are very adept as sussing out what the local market will bear and sustain. So they charge more. They have their own income and profit floors that they will resist breaking to compete on price, because they can see where a race to the bottom ends.

It wouldn't be surprising if a dynamic like that is a large part of these effects.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bay isn't remotely reasonable comparison. NYC is much cheaper than Tokyo, adjusted for living quarter size and median wage. I'm not talking about affordances you get by living in certain areas - simply the size of the place and the price, relative to localized income. Tokyo simply is not cheaper, period. It only seems cheaper because rich Americans keep using their income and comparing it to the adjusted USD:YEN…

I was paid a local salary while living in Japan. The total cost of living in Tokyo blows NYC and the Bay out of the water in terms of affordability and I’ve lived multiple years in all three. CPI with rent in NYC is nearly 90% higher. Median household in New York is 120k; it’s 87k in Japan. Rent is over 200% higher than in Japan. Even adjusting for square footage and the earning differential, I assure you it is much…

I have lived in Tokyo and I agree with you. And other high-tier Japanese cities like Kyoto and Fukuoka are affordable on local salaries as well (both in terms of rent and in general).

Wanted to mention though that your sentence "the total cost of living in Tokyo blows NYC and the Bay out of the water" risks being interpreted with two very different meanings.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#56
post #45

Personally I’ve never believed that adding more houses decreases prices. Though that is true in theory, in practice what happens is: 1. Major housing developments are accompanied by more jobs than the units being built could serve. 2. Developments are accompanied by local initiatives to improve the neighborhood that take effect soon after. 3. The quality disparity in a given area results in people far higher than the…

> I’ve yet to see anywhere on earth that’s both dense and cheap which I believe more or less proves the point. If building more houses really made things cheaper it would be trivial to prove: cities, which are denser, would be cheaper than the nearby suburbs. Across virtually every region this is not true, when adjusted for square footage. After a certain point, density probably increases unit costs, which would mean…

Sure, building a structure is cheaper than not building a structure, bit to an extent, usually height above 7-8 stories, it gets cheaper per SQ ft to build as you go up.

That's before you factor in the cost of land which tends to be one of the most expensive parts of building in a city, that also goes down per unit built.

I'm not sure, 'should we build a structure or just pave a field is really a good comparison here'

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was paid a local salary while living in Japan. The total cost of living in Tokyo blows NYC and the Bay out of the water in terms of affordability and I’ve lived multiple years in all three. CPI with rent in NYC is nearly 90% higher. Median household in New York is 120k; it’s 87k in Japan. Rent is over 200% higher than in Japan. Even adjusting for square footage and the earning differential, I assure you it is much…

I have lived in Tokyo and I agree with you. And other high-tier Japanese cities like Kyoto and Fukuoka are affordable on local salaries as well (both in terms of rent and in general). Wanted to mention though that your sentence "the total cost of living in Tokyo blows NYC and the Bay out of the water" risks being interpreted with two very different meanings.

Fixed - thank you. I didn’t even want to get into the other metros and complicate the discussion further but yes, they have extremely reasonable options as well.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about total cost of living, I'm talking about the rent. meals along with other things, in tokyo are substantially cheaper than in New York, agreed.

The post you're replying to directly mentioned rent specifically multiple times.

To be fair, I did edit and make some adjustments. Their critique was valid as of my initial post.

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#59
post #29

Why is it that many of the same people who argue against more roads and more parking lots on the basis of induced demand preventing more roads from meaningfully solving congestion seem to think that in the densest and most competitive cities that adding units will necessarily make hosing affordable?

Because the characteristics are different. Denser housing is very efficient, in the sense that it requires less infrastructure spend. Roads are just not very efficient - you need to spend a lot of money to get the same result as a transit line etc (and that’s after ignoring the fact that roads have lots of other expenses to the user that transit does not). People want to live in dense, well-serviced cities, and they…

I don't really follow.

The idea for roads is that congestion moderates the utility of roads, so over a wide range of capacities roads will remain congested or even become more congested as you add roads, since if you build more you make the roads more useful (reaching more places faster, through better connections or increased capacity) and so people will use them more, potentially resulting in more congestion but almost certainly not less.

The parallel idea for housing would be that cost moderates the utility of the city, people move into the city until the cost matches the benefits of density for them (driving up costs and pushing out people for whom the equation no longer works out). If you add units, you've just allowed more people to move from Idaho into the city, and made the entire city potentially more valuable from increased network effect and caused costs to go up further.

This process shouldn't be expected make it affordable to live in the city, unless you've managed to either damage the utility of living in the city through the secondary effects of increased population/density or you've managed to build enough supply the you can sink the entire worldwide demand for living in one of the best and most valuable place, such that there are no more wealthier people anywhere in the world to sell to and you must go down market to get more customers.

It would however, increase the number of people who can have the benefits of living there, but at the cost of displacing more people who can no longer afford it... the benefits go to people outside of the city: The wealthy ones that can move into the city, and the rest who enjoy lower competition for housing outside of the city.

> Denser housing is very efficient

Housing itself increases in efficiency to a moderate level of density-- a duplex is somewhat more efficient to construct than a single family home, owing mostly to reduced land costs (materials are somewhat higher due to the increased isolation and fire protection required). But the effects fall off with increasing density, and you run into issues that building higher involves structural and safety related costs that hurt their efficiency.

E.g. https://ti.org/pdfs/APB36.pdf Page 2--

  high-density construction is significantly greater,
  per square foot, than low-density construction. Due to the
  increased need for steel, concrete, and similar materials,
  the cost of building three or more stories is progressively
  greater the more stories are built
  [...]  building three stories costs 30 to 50
  percent more, per square foot, than two-stories; four to
  seven stories costs 200 to 300 percent more; and eight or
  more stories costs 450 to 650 percent more" )

Re: Change my mind: Density increases local but decreases global prices

#60
post #47
post #29

Why is it that many of the same people who argue against more roads and more parking lots on the basis of induced demand preventing more roads from meaningfully solving congestion seem to think that in the densest and most competitive cities that adding units will necessarily make hosing affordable?

Everything causes induced demand. Expansion of bike lanes and public transit also causes induced demand for these, but at least in the end you end up with more efficient transport. The increased efficiency/throughput gives you a better chance of outpacing demand growth. With housing you also have a better chance of outpacing demand growth if you build densely enough. Even that's never enough to meet all the demand, a…

I agree that there are many benefits, and reasons to desire building more for those benefits. And costs: I wouldn't want to live in any dense city I've ever visited, and I've seen ones all over the world, but that's my choice-- and I think it's totally reasonable for people to have other preferences.

But I think its far less clear that affordability should be expected to be among those benefits. It's hard to be sure how much value causes density vs density causes value, otherwise one would say that as the post shows-- the existing examples show that increasing density will decrease affordability. But many people do accept the argument that more roads mean more traffic.

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