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Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

covertactionmagazine.com

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Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#351

Post by kelnos »

kodah wrote: post #291
boomboomsubban wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On 1, she says >The CIDNE-I and CIDNE-A databases contain reporting and analysis fields for multiple disciplines including Human Intelligence or HUMINT reports, Psychological Operations or PSYOP reports, Engagement reports, Counter Improvised Explosive Device or CIED reports, SigAct reports, Targeting reports, Social and Cultural reports, Civil Affairs reports, and Human Terrain reporting. They're the reports we made…

She says elsewhere in that testimony that the reports in which civilians were killed, raped, and sexual assaults mostly had to do with the police and military of the host countries (Iraq and Afghanistan). This lines up with my experience as well; we were repeatedly advised to stay out of the locals business, or how they run their judicial system is up to them. This same judicial system is how you have multi-time trig…

> I don't really see a difference between the two besides intent. Intent isn't really something that matters in today's world.

You can't have it both ways, though. In your original post, you said, "Second, she was releasing documents because she was angry that she was deployed." Clearly you believed her intent to be a big part of the reason why she shouldn't be considered a whistleblower.

And in this thread we've learned your "first" (she released nothing new) is also not really the case, and your "third" (she didn't try to use official whistleblowing channels first) is murky, in that she probably felt that the people behind the whistleblowing channels already knew about the things she was going to blow the whistle on, and had a vested interest in keeping them secret.

So I don't really see your objection here? It feels more along the lines of "if I were in her position I would have done things differently", which, fine, I think that's probably true of many people in many situations, but so what?

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#352

Post by kelnos »

kodah wrote: post #196
ok_dad wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whistle blowing process in the military I was also in the military, and can tell you if she had complained no one would have cared and probably would have just gotten her into more trouble. Whistleblowing to the military chain of command is just for stuff like if your CO is stealing money or your LT is coercing a sailor into a sexual relationship, not for stuff that makes the military look bad. The stuff Manning re…

That's not really true, when I was in I was cognizant of a group of Marines that were being charged due to a request mast. They did have to request past their local unit leadership, which the process allowed for.

Why can't both things be true? Like any large organization, different parts of it behave in different ways. While you had a good impression of the whistleblowing infrastructure due to your experience, it's perfectly reasonable and unsurprising that others might have a bad impression of it due to their experience. And perhaps Manning was one of those latter people.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#353

Post by kelnos »

lionkor wrote: post #143
HSNomad wrote: post #69

There is a saying goes like this, "85% of people on earth are followers, 10% are leaders or creators, or manipulators and 5% are observers. The followers need something to follow or believe so the creators capitalize on that and take advantage of their desire to be lead. The observers see everything that's going on and can ruin everything for the 10% but, the 85% label the 5% crazy or plan to get rid of them because…

800 million leaders in the world, and 400 million whisleblowers?

400M observers, of which a large portion might desire to be whistleblowers, but either see it as futile, or as incredibly dangerous to themselves, and therefore stay silent.

Regardless, the absolute numbers or exact percent values aren't important. If we believe the concept is plausible, it's enough to think of the vast majority being followers, with a small number of leaders/creators/manipulators and an even smaller number of observers/whistleblowers.

Maybe 85/10/5 is right, maybe it's 95/4/1, maybe 99/0.8/0.2, whatever. As with many things, it's an intentional oversimplification, intended to illustrate a general idea.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#354

Post by jongjong »

generic92034 wrote: post #257
trinsic2 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I don't operate in these power structures. From 1995 to 2005 I worked for corporations and seeing it was harmful to my well being, I decide to provide computer services directly to the public. Now I set my own rules, and I work very hard to set my own ethical spaces where people are forced to do the right thing if they want to operate in my world. I have found that people want to do the right things, but…

While you may be less subject to corporate power structures the way you are operating now, you are still subject to all kinds of other power structures. As the GP has submitted, try working against the power structure of the country you are living in and you most likely will suffer greatly. The same even happens on lower levels (state, municipality, family?). And even regarding corporate power structures you are only…

Agreed. You don't even have to work against them, if your ideas are seen as a threat, you will suffer. The worst part is that most of the people who will make your life difficult don't even understand what they're doing. They're just doing their job.

Your ideas could be potentially highly beneficial to society, they might benefit everyone including those in power but if it's against their beliefs, you will be punished from all sides.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#355

Post by andirk »

southernplaces7 wrote: post #241
jiggywiggy wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes it worse is, whistleblowers are trouble makers often. They are difficult people, at best like Snowden, they lay low. It makes it easier to dismiss them. Why? Because people who are good and social with the group do not have a contrarian character. To whistleblow against a very powerful organisation, like the NSA, you have to be a pain in the ass. I don't mean that in a bad way. Normal sociable people just…

>Because people who are good and social with the group do not have a contrarian character. To whistleblow against a very powerful organisation, like the NSA, you have to be a pain in the ass. I don't mean that in a bad way. Normal sociable people just don't do that. You're making way too simplistic a generalization here. Some sociable people can be sociable and friendly with a group until that group changes and they…

A very social person is probably less likely to speak out against their peers because they have become friends with them and their power somewhat lies in those people liking them.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#356

Post by boomboomsubban »

cde-v wrote: post #242
shrubble wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even worse than it appears... https://www.zerohedge.com/political/over-10000-fbi-agents-ca... Over 25 per cent (at the least) of FBI employees can access secret databases on people. 'In his investigation, Horowitz found that none of the 29 randomly chosen queries had been carried out properly or legally. Rep. Andy Biggs (R-Ariz.) said from an earlier conversation with Horowitz that in 25 of the cases, “there was…

Any better sources than Zerohedge/Epoch Times?

The video of the hearing is available, https://twitter.com/JudiciaryGOP/status/1651588376196182016

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#357

Post by jongjong »

HeckFeck wrote: post #126
paulmd wrote: post #71

Whistleblowers act against power structures and that's the ultimate transgression as far as the power structure is concerned. Transgressions in favor of the state are one thing, you'll get a slap on the wrist at most, even personal benefit and promotion in some cases, but transgressions against the state are what will provoke a real response. See, for example, the incredible vigor pursued against the people who relea…

That's exactly the problem. You know they are speaking an essential truth when you look at the feathers ruffled by Snowden, Assange and those who follow in their path. They will get their due acclaim if we're lucky to have a more moral and free society in the future.

Snowden actually got a lot of support. I remember that even some high profile corporate executives expressed support... Though a cynical take on that would be that it was just to cover their own asses because they wanted to make themselves (and their companies/platforms) look like victims of government surveillance as opposed to facilitators.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#358

Post by fasterik »

trinsic2 wrote: post #229
paulmd wrote: post #71

Whistleblowers act against power structures and that's the ultimate transgression as far as the power structure is concerned. Transgressions in favor of the state are one thing, you'll get a slap on the wrist at most, even personal benefit and promotion in some cases, but transgressions against the state are what will provoke a real response. See, for example, the incredible vigor pursued against the people who relea…

This is why I don't operate in these power structures. From 1995 to 2005 I worked for corporations and seeing it was harmful to my well being, I decide to provide computer services directly to the public. Now I set my own rules, and I work very hard to set my own ethical spaces where people are forced to do the right thing if they want to operate in my world. I have found that people want to do the right things, but…

There is nothing inherently good or bad about a group of people working toward some common purpose. In principle, given the right value system, incentives, and organizational structure, you could create a corporation that does an extraordinary amount of good in the world.

The problem is bad power structures, not power structures per se. Just because corporations as they exist today have problems doesn't mean that we should give up on organizations of people entirely. It means we need to do the necessary work in philosophy, psychology, economics, business administration, etc. that will enable the creation of more effective and ethical power structures.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#359

Post by boomboomsubban »

b33j0r wrote: post #274
tacocataco wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression Snowden happened to be in Russia on route to another country when he was stuck for some reason. IIRC his passport was revoked, but if I'm wrong I'd enjoy some readings that say otherwise. Its been a while since I followed the story.

He first went to Hong Kong, then like Korea (we’re not sure), then Russia. It’s a little suspicious eh? I thought the american people deserved to know the things he released… But it might have been less innocent than one guy being a whistleblower. Other peer powers accommodated him in their interests.

>He first went to Hong Kong, then like Korea (we’re not sure), then Russia.

What? He went to Hong Kong, then got a flight to Ecuador via Russia. He chose Russia as layover location because Hong Kong has a limited amount of flights and he ruled that the one least likely to arrest him en route. There was no "we're not sure."

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#360

Post by andirk »

suzzer99 wrote: post #321
HeckFeck wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the problem. You know they are speaking an essential truth when you look at the feathers ruffled by Snowden, Assange and those who follow in their path. They will get their due acclaim if we're lucky to have a more moral and free society in the future.

There's a difference between releasing everything, and only releasing stuff Russia wants you to release, like Assange was doing.

You should watch collateral murder and a million other thing released that #1 show atrocities, and what you take is a red scare cry? Nothing to see here because Russia?
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