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Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

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Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#341

Post by kelnos »

copper-float wrote: post #166
mandmandam wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these sort of issues where people overwhelmingly feel one way, and the political establishment feels another? Yeah, those are all strangely absent. I feel that Sanders' nomination campaigns epitomized this divide: He spoke for the people. Many more people donated for him than any other candidate, his supporters were diverse and enthusiastic. He was the number one most popular politician in the entire country. Yet m…

We need to shift the dynamic in America from relying on these media conglomerates, to individuals doing their own research on things. Everyone knows the news media is rigged beyond saving, we need to let them die out, it's what they all deserve for betraying the trust of the people.

> Everyone knows the news media is rigged beyond saving

Is that true, though? Or do we, in our bubble, just believe that? I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of people think the news media -- at least the particular subset of the news media they choose to watch -- is more or less ok.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#342

Post by anonym29 »

kennend3 wrote: post #308
lern_too_spel wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PRISM doesn't involve data from US citizens' accounts. Please review what PRISM is before claiming it is illegal or unethical. It is neither. If you are incapable of reading the documents yourself: if the company receiving the wiretap order has any reason to believe that an account belongs to a US citizen or a non-US citizen living in the US, they challenge the order. No warrant is needed in the US legal system or th…

I'm sorry but reading your posts here is just comical. Can you explain why there are countless stories such as this: NSA staff used spy tools on spouses, ex-lovers: watchdog https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog... You keep writing they were not spying on US citizens, but clearly they were or NSA employees would not be using it to spy on friends/family would they? Did they coin the term "LOVEIN…

It sounds to me like that user is arguing in bad faith. We know that intelligence agencies attempt to influence online discussions about their own activities; it wouldn't surprise me to find out that they're being paid to post here as part of a US gov disinformation campaign to sway public opinion in favor of NSA. That or they've received all of their education on the subject by the perpetrators.

Either way, it's clear they're not coming from a place of promoting transparency or a critical perspective of the government's actions. There's nothing wrong with being a patriot but this is a conversion about government misbehavior, not a loyalty contest.

It's probably best to just ignore them, which is what I'll be doing going forward.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#343

Post by anonym29 »

lost_tourist wrote: post #313
copper-float wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perfectly said, it encapsulates America to a tee.

and every other country, let's let them have credit too. Politicians everywhere are usually pieces of shit, as are their henchmen

You're not wrong, but doesn't whataboutism detract from the legitimate criticisms being made of the US government here?

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#344

Post by kelnos »

photochemsyn wrote: post #88
runnerup wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He probably could have attempted to only leak the domestic surveillance, or at least screen out as much of the foreign intelligence methods as much as possible. Half of it was whistleblowing (domestic surveillance) but half of it was pseudo-treasonous (foreign surveillance).

I don't understand why people who make this argument think it's OK for the US government to spy on the private communications of all Chinese citizens but not for it to spy on those of American citizens. Is it OK for China to spy on American citizen's private communications, then? It becomes even more problematic within the Five Eyes cooperation context, because if the NSA is spying on British private citizen communic…

> I don't understand why people who make this argument think it's OK for the US government to spy on the private communications of all Chinese citizens but not for it to spy on those of American citizens. Is it OK for China to spy on American citizen's private communications, then?

I don't think it's a matter of what's "ok" or not, it's a matter of winning.

If spying in general is ok, it's of course ok no matter who engages in it. But it's not about whether it's ok or not, it's about what citizens of a particular country want for their own interests. If spying on another nation's citizens makes you safer, you may feel good about that. But being spied on by other nations probably isn't great for you, so it's to be fought against.

I think spying in general is not ok, in the same vein that war is not ok. Unfortunately, neither of these things are avoidable in the world we live in, so obviously I will be more in favor of actions that protect me and mine, and against actions that might make me less safe.

(This is all without addressing the question of whether or not spying on another nation's non-government, non-military population makes anyone safer. I genuinely have no idea.)

> Universal standards of human behavior and the right to personal privacy are hardly limited to some arbitrary nation-state boundary line, are they?

That's a wonderfully idealistic view, and I absolutely agree with it. But that's not the world we live in. Some people are by default adversaries because of the accident of the location of their birth. It's dumb, but that's how it is.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#345

Post by kelnos »

bombolo wrote: post #186
morkalork wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It gets a bit complicated with the whole 5-eyes mutual back scratching thing though.

> I don't understand why people who make this argument think it's OK for the US government to spy on the private communications of all Chinese citizens but not for it to spy on those of American citizens. Is it OK for China to spy on American citizen's private communications, then? Because USA is good, so if they are the ones doing the spying, it's just for pretty legit reasons, while chinese people don't speak engli…

You're being sarcastic, but in a generalized sense that's exactly what it is: of course spying is ok/good when it's your country doing it to someone else! Obviously that spying will enrich your country, and might even make you safer.

But duh, of course it's bad when someone else spies on you! That can only make you less safe.

It's not about "ok", it's about winning the "war".

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#346

Post by alexvoda »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #289
trinsic2 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I don't operate in these power structures. From 1995 to 2005 I worked for corporations and seeing it was harmful to my well being, I decide to provide computer services directly to the public. Now I set my own rules, and I work very hard to set my own ethical spaces where people are forced to do the right thing if they want to operate in my world. I have found that people want to do the right things, but…

What are your thoughts on big vs small govt?

[flagged]

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#347

Post by kelnos »

George83728 wrote: post #233
newZWhoDis wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The existence of, and participation in, FVEY is treason against the people of the United States. There is no such thing as an “allied intelligence agency”, by their very nature all non-US intelligence agencies are hostile to American citizens. Thus, our domestic agencies conspiring with hostile foreign entities to defraud and undermine the citizens of the United States is treason.

You're wrong, it's not treason. This is meant to be a legalistic society where crimes are defined by laws, not by how the word for the crime is popularly perceived by laypeople. The US Constitution defines treason. In America, treason is when an American levies war against the United States, or adhering to the Enemies of the US, giving them aid and comfort. To characterize the UK as an enemy of the US simply isn't tr…

In that case, would you agree if we modified the GP's statement to say:

"The existence of, and participation in, FVEY is espionage against the people of the United States."

If so, then presumably all the arguments against it are still valid, no? Assuming we can agree that "treason against the people of the United States" and "espionage against the people of the United States" are at least in the same ballpark of badness?

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#348

Post by vuciv1 »

trinsic2 wrote: post #229
paulmd wrote: post #71

Whistleblowers act against power structures and that's the ultimate transgression as far as the power structure is concerned. Transgressions in favor of the state are one thing, you'll get a slap on the wrist at most, even personal benefit and promotion in some cases, but transgressions against the state are what will provoke a real response. See, for example, the incredible vigor pursued against the people who relea…

This is why I don't operate in these power structures. From 1995 to 2005 I worked for corporations and seeing it was harmful to my well being, I decide to provide computer services directly to the public. Now I set my own rules, and I work very hard to set my own ethical spaces where people are forced to do the right thing if they want to operate in my world. I have found that people want to do the right things, but…

How do you do this? How do you make money to survive?

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#349

Post by kelnos »

Spooky23 wrote: post #294
freetime2 wrote: post #17

It’s a travesty that Edward Snowden is still a fugitive in the United States. James Clapper went in front of congress and lied about the scope of surveillance on US citizens. Snowden saw it as his moral obligation to expose those lies, and he did it in the least destructive way possible by leaking the evidence to qualified journalists.

[flagged]

> Whistleblowers don’t run to Moscow.

They do when most other countries will extradite them back to the US, where they'll be tossed into a dark cell for the rest of their life.

Snowden did his part. He released the information he had. Assuming we believe the information he released is genuine, it's utterly irrelevant what we think of him now, or what he has to do to survive and remain at least somewhat free.

> Snowden is a traitor.

Pedant hat on: Snowden can never legally be tried as a traitor, as he has not committed treason. The US Constitution very precisely describes treason, and he did not do that. If Snowden were ever arrested and returned to US custody, I imagine the main charges would revolve around espionage and conspiracy.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#350

Post by kelnos »

0xDEF wrote: post #244
yarg wrote: post #116

I continue to maintain that Snowden was one of the greatest American patriots in decades. There are many leakers that deliberately act with the intention to harm the state; That wasn't Snowden - he threw away his life to stage an intervention. Why has he been left to rot in a dictatorship? I'd say sign a pardon for the man, but unless he can get out of Russia there's a damned good chance that things would only get wo…

I am 99% sure Snowden is cringing at the term "American patriots". Snowden's primary motivation was most likely opposition to US foreign policy and control of the world. There is no other reason to contact Glenn Greenwald in late 2012. In 2008-2012 Glenn Greenwald was primarily known as one of the harshest opponents of US foreign policy and someone who didn't shy away from defending Russia, Iran and other geopolitica…

> I am 99% sure Snowden is cringing at the term "American patriots".

Perhaps for the current perverse use of the term "patriot", which to many Americans seems to boil down to "yes-man for the state". But in its purest form, I do believe Snowden to be a patriot, even if he'd object to the term.

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