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British public support for monarchy at historic low, poll reveals

theguardian.com

61–70 of 90 posts

Re: British public support for monarchy at historic low, poll reveals

#61

In my view the elephant in the room is that the monarchy in the UK has demonstrably failed to be a check or balance on a party with a majority in Parliament. Without a written constitution there is no limit on what a party with a majority in Parliament - which it can an achieve with a relatively small share of the vote - can do. Not a healthy situation.

I'm unsure how the monarchy could be a check and a balance when the "constitutional settlement" is generally considered to include the monarch staying out of politics publicly - the monarch acts on the advice of ministers, which is to say the monarch is essentially a rubber stamp with several enormous palaces they can be stored in.

There are checks and balances. When Boris Johnson unlawfully prorogued parliament, judicial review leading to a supreme court judgement eventually overturned the order, concluding his advice to the Queen was outside the powers of the Prime Minister. This is a fairly drastic outcome but Brexit was an interesting constitutional fuzzing campaign and we had a situation where the speaker of the house stretched the definition of impartiality quite a bit too.

Other checks and balances include His Majesty's Loyal Opposition and assorted members of Parliament who may disagree with whatever bill is under consideration (the opposition are currently a bit useless, you may be forgiven for thinking they don't exist) and the House of Lords, who scrutinize bills passed from the commons (and do object to things quite frequently in spite of the irritation this causes to the PM of the day).

It isn't perfect, but as the system is currently set up I'm not sure the monarchy can be regarded to have "failed" to check or balance the party in parliament. As to whether the constitution should be written down - I think it would probably be useful, but it is unlikely - and checks and balances still work as shown in the prorogation case. As for first-past-the-post and the UK's electoral system in general - again, yeah, a problem. I'm British and it doesn't matter who I vote for since whoever the conservative candidate is will be returned for my constituency, guaranteed. However, that's also not something the monarchy can change.

Re: British public support for monarchy at historic low, poll reveals

#62
A system where all the power is vested in a person who can never have any authority to use it works surprisingly well.

Our PM has all the authority but none of the power. He has to ask the King’s assent for everything - which curbs any real extremism.

The purists don’t like it but it works.

As you get older you start to understand why Chesterton’s fence is there.

Re: British public support for monarchy at historic low, poll reveals

#63
post #19
post #9

“X% think the monarchy is ‘quite important’”, or summat. Next poll, please, please, please drill into why these folks think it is important. Because I’m trying to come up with something for which the monarchy is important, and I’m truly at a loss as a non-resident. EDIT: all great answers (except the snarky one) that gave me some insight, thanks.

I live in Canada. Some benefits of the monarchy vs the US system: * Much of the pomp and prestige of the state gets vested in the Governor General. Whereas in the US the president gets treated like a monarch * People swear allegiance to the monarchy and the state. They serve that rather than the leader * In the event the prime minister goes truly insane, there is an outside check on their power. People dismiss these…

> Much of the pomp and prestige of the state gets vested in the Governor General. Whereas in the US the president gets treated like a monarch

The only truth in that statement is that, should the president start behaving like a monarch he can be removed just like King George or Louis XIV were thanks to the second amendment. How about the Governor General?

> People swear allegiance to the monarchy and the state. They serve that rather than the leader

The Oats of Allegiances in America are to the constitution, a founding document signed and agreed upon by all states who formed the republic. It is the voice of the people. The president is only there to enforce it temporarily.

> In the event the prime minister goes truly insane, there is an outside check on their power.

Is it? Can realistically a foreign non-elected person interfere that much in the country's politics? That sounds like a slippery slope to say the least.

The prime minister controls both the executive and legislative branches, removing a lot of the checks and balances built into the American system. Not only that, but the absence of a real constitution -they just at some point decided the constitution wouldn't apply when truckers started protesting- makes the judiciary branch (appointed by the prime minister) pretty much able to do as it pleases.

Re: British public support for monarchy at historic low, poll reveals

#64

The current monarchy format seems like it was necessary at the time of the transition away from pure monarchy in order to prevent too much opposition to the transition from blocking the transition. Like a compatibility layer with a legacy system. Now the population that would have opposed the transition is long dead, so it seems reasonable to remove the compatibility layer. Though, a more cynical take might be-- what…

Have you read Terry Pratchett? I suppose you could call him Sir Terry Pratchett in fact, but one of his characters would say that one of the design flaws of humanity is the bend in the knee. It's like someone left a coding error in their brains that says, "Kings, what a good idea". I'm paraphrasing, but barely. Your comment just reminded me of that.

As i see it a monarch can have (or not have) an element of personal charisma. People liked Elizabeth. Commonwealth countries were not going to take her image off their currency and honor indigenous people instead but when it came to changing the money to honor Charles or honor indigenous people that’s another thing.

When I was younger I saw the Charles-Diana-Camilla triangle through the “it’s so awful to have to marry someone you don’t love” lens but today I see it as a lost opportunity for the monarchy if not the UK. There is very little choice about who’s going to inherit the monarchy (can’t select for ‘much better than average’) but you can pick somebody much better than average to marry into the family, and thus keep people interested in and emotionally connected with the monarchy, which is what it is all about. If people don’t care sooner or later it will become irrelevant and/or die out, if it cultivates that connection it can thrive.

Re: British public support for monarchy at historic low, poll reveals

#65
post #61

In my view the elephant in the room is that the monarchy in the UK has demonstrably failed to be a check or balance on a party with a majority in Parliament. Without a written constitution there is no limit on what a party with a majority in Parliament - which it can an achieve with a relatively small share of the vote - can do. Not a healthy situation.

I'm unsure how the monarchy could be a check and a balance when the "constitutional settlement" is generally considered to include the monarch staying out of politics publicly - the monarch acts on the advice of ministers, which is to say the monarch is essentially a rubber stamp with several enormous palaces they can be stored in. There are checks and balances. When Boris Johnson unlawfully prorogued parliament, jud…

Largely agree but your wording is interesting - ‘generally considered’, ‘staying out of politics publicly’.

I think that there has been a degree of constructive ambiguity in the past. No more and it’s 100% clear now that the King / Queen would rubber stamp even the most extreme legislation. With FPTP, weaknesses in Lords appointments system, no written constitution etc then that’s a big weakness.

Re: British public support for monarchy at historic low, poll reveals

#66

A system where all the power is vested in a person who can never have any authority to use it works surprisingly well. Our PM has all the authority but none of the power. He has to ask the King’s assent for everything - which curbs any real extremism. The purists don’t like it but it works. As you get older you start to understand why Chesterton’s fence is there.

Can you provide examples of how it curbs extremism? The Tories have been doing extreme stuff and I don't see any intervention from the monarch.

Re: British public support for monarchy at historic low, poll reveals

#67
post #5

Constitutional monarchs are a valid form of non political heads of state, and there’s a value in such heads of state. However, they should be citizens and residents of the country they “lead” - not residing over the seas. And they should dial the ostentation back to 4-5, in line with the other countries in Europe. Let Disney handle the Magic Princesses.

Do you think the “overseas” monarchy played a positive role in Rhodesia or Fiji?

In both cases you had a country going off the rails, the “overseas monarch” said “do what you want, but don’t attach my name to it” and they became a republic.

If Rhodesia had been a republic from the beginning, it would have been easier for them to get international recognition.

Re: British public support for monarchy at historic low, poll reveals

#68

The current monarchy format seems like it was necessary at the time of the transition away from pure monarchy in order to prevent too much opposition to the transition from blocking the transition. Like a compatibility layer with a legacy system. Now the population that would have opposed the transition is long dead, so it seems reasonable to remove the compatibility layer. Though, a more cynical take might be-- what…

Have you read Terry Pratchett? I suppose you could call him Sir Terry Pratchett in fact, but one of his characters would say that one of the design flaws of humanity is the bend in the knee. It's like someone left a coding error in their brains that says, "Kings, what a good idea". I'm paraphrasing, but barely. Your comment just reminded me of that.

I’ve been thinking about that on my own lately. It’s like the whole human race has imposter syndrome and thinks there needs to be an “adult” in the room.

I don’t know how many parents feel this way when bringing their first-born home from the hospital, but my spouse and I felt like the doctors were crazy to trust us, a couple of twenty-somethings, to take home a child and actually keep it alive and do all the things adults do for children.

Maybe that was wise of us to realize the level of our inexperience, but I think that feeling of inadequacy applies to most humans in many situations. We look for leaders to follow, intellectuals to learn from, heroes to worship, and monarchs to rule us. Otherwise, who is the adult in the room?

Re: British public support for monarchy at historic low, poll reveals

#69
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unsure how the monarchy could be a check and a balance when the "constitutional settlement" is generally considered to include the monarch staying out of politics publicly - the monarch acts on the advice of ministers, which is to say the monarch is essentially a rubber stamp with several enormous palaces they can be stored in. There are checks and balances. When Boris Johnson unlawfully prorogued parliament, jud…

Largely agree but your wording is interesting - ‘generally considered’, ‘staying out of politics publicly’. I think that there has been a degree of constructive ambiguity in the past. No more and it’s 100% clear now that the King / Queen would rubber stamp even the most extreme legislation. With FPTP, weaknesses in Lords appointments system, no written constitution etc then that’s a big weakness.

> I think that there has been a degree of constructive ambiguity in the past.

Not really. Since what you're calling for specifically is the Monarch to start blocking bills: it was established in the Bill of Rights Act 1689 (which would form part of the basis of a constitution if codified) that Parliament is sovereign, and the actual Sovereign can only act on the advice of parliament apart from when exercising royal prerogative, which is done on the advice of ministers.

One example of royal prerogative is proroguing parliament, which we've discussed. Another would be giving, or not, Royal Assent to a bill. The last time Royal Assent was refused was in 1708: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Militia_Bill and that was also on the advice of ministers, as they'd changed their mind about a law that had completed its passage through parliament.

In other words, what you're asking for has not happened in over 300 years.

Re: British public support for monarchy at historic low, poll reveals

#70
post #42
post #27

its 2023 why are there still kings and queens, who are quite literally above the law [enjoys sovereign immunity, meaning he can't be prosecuted under a civil or criminal investigation.]?

Compare with the US president. It's an elected office, but they are treated "like royalty". "The president is just a citizen" is an ideal for a republic, but it's pretty far from the case.

they do consistently change at least every 8 years via democratic vote. That is the main point.
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