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Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

covertactionmagazine.com

211–220 of 510 posts

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, countries know they spy on each other. Sometimes they even use those processes to move information, just a different version of Nixon’s “For god’s sake, would someone leak this already?”

Ok, then why punish whistleblowers so harshly? Countries should consider it a useful public service.

Leaking sources and/or methods gets people killed. Good people often living in terrible places and circumstances, many of them. Maybe most. It also makes good information more difficult to come by for a long time.

Nations spying on nations (even allies) feels terrible but in practice is probably a net good for all. It reduces uncertainty, and uncertainty has historically been a major trigger for armed conflict as one side feared the other side was preparing to strike, so struck first to gain the initiative in case their fears were well-founded. History has shown that judgment to be inaccurate in some significant cases. Wars have also been avoided by good intel.

On the non-kinetic side, espionage better informs policymakers as international agreements are forged and followed. Uncertainty between nations is generally a bad thing for both nations.

We badly need to address nations spying on their own citizens, especially reciprocity arrangements to circumvent restrictions on such. But pending an unlikely utopia of humans all learning how to cooperate at scale for the first time in human history, nations spying on nations is probably a good thing for the planet.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#212
post #71

Whistleblowers act against power structures and that's the ultimate transgression as far as the power structure is concerned. Transgressions in favor of the state are one thing, you'll get a slap on the wrist at most, even personal benefit and promotion in some cases, but transgressions against the state are what will provoke a real response. See, for example, the incredible vigor pursued against the people who relea…

Yeah, and it's why I think it's fundamentally impossible to prevent retaliation against whistleblowers. Organizations act in favor of self-preservation, like any living thing. Whistleblowers by definition act against them, so an organization will always benefit by removing them. Failure to do so will prolong the damage and encourage further transgressions.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, you think that the EU spies on their own citizens but is above spying on allies? Allies not OK, citizens OK? Like how Denmark helped the US spy on the EU? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/31/denmark-helped... Yes, EU nations are somehow totally incapable of a thing every country is doing. That is naive.

> Ah, you think that the EU spies on their own citizens but is above spying on allies? Provide evidence please, but we both know there is none. > Like how Denmark helped the US spy on the EU? Yet another case of the US spying on its allies. Edit: You keep editing your comment so it's hard to properly answer. > Allies not OK, citizens OK? I've already wrote you here[0] that I find both cases despicable, but we're simp…

> Yet another case of the US spying on its allies.

I'm not sure if you're being obtuse or just didn't bother reading.

Denmark was complicit in the US spying on Germany, Sweden and Norway.

https://www.dw.com/en/danish-secret-service-helped-us-spy-on...

France and Germany both have admitted they have spied on the White House.

https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar...

https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou...

Germany has been found to helping the US spy on EU allies:

https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-b...

This is a childish and naïve stance.

Also, I'm not American. You can stop referring to me in the second person.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#214
post #71

Whistleblowers act against power structures and that's the ultimate transgression as far as the power structure is concerned. Transgressions in favor of the state are one thing, you'll get a slap on the wrist at most, even personal benefit and promotion in some cases, but transgressions against the state are what will provoke a real response. See, for example, the incredible vigor pursued against the people who relea…

That's exactly the problem. You know they are speaking an essential truth when you look at the feathers ruffled by Snowden, Assange and those who follow in their path. They will get their due acclaim if we're lucky to have a more moral and free society in the future.

I am not a fan of the idea that "oh, the right people are mad, therefore it must have been a Good thing to do!" The same feathers would have been ruffled if Snowden had leaked our nuclear codes. The point is that he exposed wrongdoing, and the public agreed.

There are plenty of people who are punished by the state that the majority does not believe are "speaking an essential truth". For example: domestic terrorists.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#215
post #181

Some whistleblowers are just disgruntled and are not acting out of a sense of moral obligation but are rather whistleblowing as a form of vengeance

I'm sure there is some truth to your statement. I don't think it negates the need for society to protect whistleblowers who do so under a sense of moral obligation though (which is what the article is about).

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these sort of issues where people overwhelmingly feel one way, and the political establishment feels another? Yeah, those are all strangely absent. I feel that Sanders' nomination campaigns epitomized this divide: He spoke for the people. Many more people donated for him than any other candidate, his supporters were diverse and enthusiastic. He was the number one most popular politician in the entire country. Yet m…

We need to shift the dynamic in America from relying on these media conglomerates, to individuals doing their own research on things. Everyone knows the news media is rigged beyond saving, we need to let them die out, it's what they all deserve for betraying the trust of the people.

Media megacorporations won't die on their own.

As much money as they lose; they make enough returns for their owners in indirect ways to be worth the investment. Murdoch and Turner are many things, but poor isn't one of them.

Btw, did anyone else find it disturbing how "do your own research" became a trigger phrase that allows a rather large group of people to discount anything and everything you said? And at the same time, for an opposite but similar group of people, "trust the science" did the same thing?

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non-USAer I'm so glad he went beyond domestic spying. He showed the world how the USA spied on many of its supposed allies. The scope of the system of espionage they built is orwellian and just astonishing. If there is one evil force conspiring for global domination that is the NSA and whichever institution they take order from. Thanks again, Snowden. What I don't understand is the complete lack of response from…

The US has been the sole superpower for more than 3 decades now. Its relationship to its allies are more like relationships with vassals, see geopolitical interactions with European countries, Japan, South Korea.

I'd say at least since WWII. Admittedly we wouldn't be here without the US coming in and saving us from Germany.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are all examples of EU countries doing domestic, not foreign espionage (which is also despicable, by the way). You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. The question here is how can you call yourself an ally in good faith when you spy on your allies?

> You can search all you want but there is no evidence or proof whatsoever of EU countries spying USA top government officials. Nonsense. https://www.france24.com/en/20131024-nsa-france-spying-squar... https://www.dw.com/en/german-intelligence-spied-on-white-hou...

The first article is just a claim with no evidence provided.

The second is based on some yet unreleased documents that Der Spiegel claims to have reviewed years ago.

Still no evidence to be found, only claims.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I don't understand is the complete lack of response from countries like Italy and Germany once they found out being spied by an ally. Because they're all doing it too. Any attempts at retaliation what have been hypocritical and met with callouts. EDIT: Since this is news to some people who seem to think that the entirety of Europe is on a moral high horse, here's some references. There's little morality in int…

There was in fact a small reaction[0][1] and it's naive to think that the espionage systems and efforts USA and European countries have are in any way comparable. > Because they're all doing it too. Any attempts at retaliation what have been hypocritical and met with callouts. Source? I can tell you already there is none. We have plenty of evidence that the USA is spying Europe and other allies, none of the opposite.…

> Source? I can tell you already there is none. We have plenty of evidence that the USA is spying Europe and other allies, none of the opposite.

geopolitics 101? why would any country not have spies and passive surveillance of both enemies and allies that could one day threaten their power/economy?

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes it worse is, whistleblowers are trouble makers often. They are difficult people, at best like Snowden, they lay low. It makes it easier to dismiss them. Why? Because people who are good and social with the group do not have a contrarian character. To whistleblow against a very powerful organisation, like the NSA, you have to be a pain in the ass. I don't mean that in a bad way. Normal sociable people just…

[flagged]

I disagree with the idea that we are run by psychopaths.
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