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Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

covertactionmagazine.com

71–80 of 510 posts

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#71
Whistleblowers act against power structures and that's the ultimate transgression as far as the power structure is concerned.

Transgressions in favor of the state are one thing, you'll get a slap on the wrist at most, even personal benefit and promotion in some cases, but transgressions against the state are what will provoke a real response. See, for example, the incredible vigor pursued against the people who released the collateral murder videos, and not the people in the video who violated the geneva conventions by murdering surrendering combatants. One transgressed in favor of the state, and one against. That's all that matters.

And of course the power structure has investigated itself and found no wrong-doing, something something "you can't surrender to a helicopter therefore we were fine to shoot them", or whatever. You can't get a hmmwv out to a site during a decade-long occupation to take them in, better shoot them I guess.

It is the same thing in corporations too: you can be incompetent or your project can fail, and that's fine as long as you don't rock the boat. It's actually probably worse to rock the boat and try to save a failing project, not only do you take it on yourself if it fails (which it likely will anyway, because they won't listen/the project is too far gone) but even if it succeeds you've stuck your head up and shown yourself to not be a yes-man. We want team players here, not someone who's going to kick up a fuss and argue with the boss or jump them on the ladder. Doesn’t matter if what you said was true or not, you don’t transgress the power structures.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#72

It’s a travesty that Edward Snowden is still a fugitive in the United States. James Clapper went in front of congress and lied about the scope of surveillance on US citizens. Snowden saw it as his moral obligation to expose those lies, and he did it in the least destructive way possible by leaking the evidence to qualified journalists.

Agreed. He worked with journalists to try the make the leak safe. Let’s focus on impact- Now everyone is at least aware that digital activities are under surveillance including phone call metadata. We have made that trade off for some security. Thank you Snowden.

And yet, it is not journalists that are privy to classified material, it is lawmakers, military staff, intelligence staff, and their contractors and consultants.

What makes a journalist a better place to whistle to than an elected politician on the intelligence committee or any one of a number of other options.

My basic position on this is that secret holders never have the full picture, but at least they have the trust of the state they serve. A journalist is not always just a journalist.

Now, before you disregard my opinion completely please add to your consideration the following facts:

- I dated and lived with a nationally renowned journalist and editor, so I know a bit about journalists.

- I worked for CSIS and currently work for the CIA as an NOC Agent. AKA a spy.

- I have been in situations where I deeply felt the right thing to do was not to list to the people above my command. What I did in one particular situation was contact a politician I deeply trust who has high level clearance and left a vague message for that politician.

- I think some good has come out of the Snowden leaks, even though I don't think he did it the right way. It's a nuanced discussion and the public doesn't know everything. This work is tough.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#74

It’s a travesty that Edward Snowden is still a fugitive in the United States. James Clapper went in front of congress and lied about the scope of surveillance on US citizens. Snowden saw it as his moral obligation to expose those lies, and he did it in the least destructive way possible by leaking the evidence to qualified journalists.

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Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#75

It’s a travesty that Edward Snowden is still a fugitive in the United States. James Clapper went in front of congress and lied about the scope of surveillance on US citizens. Snowden saw it as his moral obligation to expose those lies, and he did it in the least destructive way possible by leaking the evidence to qualified journalists.

I disagree that he did it in the least destructive way possible. He revealed far more secrets than were necessary to blow the whistle. Just take a look at the list of secrets he revealed. Most of them are not about domestic spying at all: https://www.lawfareblog.com/snowden-revelations If he wanted to blow the whistle on domestic spying, he could have shared documents with journalists about domestic spying.

I'm about 3/4 through the page and it's all related to spying to me.. are you specifically referring to something?

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PRISM was both illegal and unconstitutional. The leadership of these agencies and the congressmen that enabled them on the intel committee are traitors to the republic, plain and simple. Note to mods: I understand HN isn’t for “waging ideological debate”, but this is an inherently political topic and the discussion is on-topic

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That’s a failure of the courts to apply standing.

You can’t sue because you have no standing, because you can’t prove you were spied on, and proving it would be illegal so… checkmate. :)

PRISM is a clear violation of the 4th, and if we had supremes that were worth a damn all bulk collection programs would be prohibited.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#77
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While foreign allies showed a lot of interest in his revelations. Notwithstanding his morally high intentions, it's debatable whether the USA as a whole got a positive outcome from his actions.

What do you mean it's debatable? The govt was literally spying on the whole country without any disclosure. The actual people who live and were being spied on have at least an idea of their true circumstances now.

At the same time, foreign allies had a formal proof they were being spied as well. Domestically, it was a win; internationally, it was a catastrophe.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#78
post #74

It’s a travesty that Edward Snowden is still a fugitive in the United States. James Clapper went in front of congress and lied about the scope of surveillance on US citizens. Snowden saw it as his moral obligation to expose those lies, and he did it in the least destructive way possible by leaking the evidence to qualified journalists.

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Sometimes you live in Russia if you have no other options.

Re: Whistleblowers are the conscience of society, yet suffer gravely

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. He worked with journalists to try the make the leak safe. Let’s focus on impact- Now everyone is at least aware that digital activities are under surveillance including phone call metadata. We have made that trade off for some security. Thank you Snowden.

And yet, it is not journalists that are privy to classified material, it is lawmakers, military staff, intelligence staff, and their contractors and consultants. What makes a journalist a better place to whistle to than an elected politician on the intelligence committee or any one of a number of other options. My basic position on this is that secret holders never have the full picture, but at least they have the tr…

State employees are financially incentivized not to disobey, while journalists are, ideally.
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