New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings • Hacker News Board

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#651

Post by JamisonM » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 5:23 AM UTC

ou8_1_2 wrote: post #44

SigmundA wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worst case at 240v : Electric hot water heater = 20 amps Electric stove = 50 amps all burners on and oven Washing machine = 15 amps Car charger = 50 amps Total = 135 amps Standard residential service in the US = 200 amps split phase @ 240v Whats the problem?

All the other 15 amp circuits people take for granted for things like lights, the clothes dryer and the heat/cooling system you left off your list (heat pump + air handler + emergency heat coils)... Add in the 80% rule and 200amps doesn't go as far as one might hope in a gas free-house.

There are a lot of jurisdictions where piped natural gas is not available and 200 amp service is very common, as a practical matter it is not a big deal.

Requiring new builds to have even more electrical capacity and more robust incoming infrastructure is a win-win-win situation and hopefully that is what code & consumers demand.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#652

Post by danans » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 5:28 AM UTC

Housing developers themselves often prefer not to run expensive natural gas plumbing into new buildings in addition to electricity. As an example, consider 461 Dean St, which besides being the largest modular skyscraper in the US, is fully electric [1].

This ordinance will just probably just push electrification from exclusively at the high-end out to the entire new housing stock.

1. https://461dean.com/

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#653

Post by JakeAl » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 5:40 AM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #457

ahoy wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

Uhhh... woe is you? Plenty of non-poor people live with gas stoves, often without fume hoods, and even prefer gas. Not once have I ever felt ill or victimized because I had to cook on gas.

Love my gas stove, won't live without one, and it keeps my home warm in the winter even when the power goes out. Gas is much more cost effective than electric as well. Also lobe my gas water heater for the same reason. Hot baths during blackouts. This whole "gas is bad for the environment" is bunk when fossil fuels are required to generate al that electricity and that doesn't even get to the cost and efficiency of storing it.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#654

Post by danans » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 5:40 AM UTC

nonethewiser wrote: post #331

danans wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ? How about a little butane stove? They work great at hotel omelette bars! Or a Coleman stove? It's not that big a deal to cook when the power is out, really.

Well you prove the point. Gas is necessary when the power is out.

My point is that backup cooking solutions for when the power is out are both cheap and convenient. You don't need to build a wood fire in the backyard just to cook.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#655

Post by ruszki » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 5:49 AM UTC

skipkey wrote: post #603

rlg2161 wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> something that will not happen in our lifetimes Not sure where you’re coming up with this - the average modern gas stove is expected to last 13-15 years [1]. Obviously there are exceptions but we can expect 95%+ of this infra to be replaced in 20 years just due to equipment failure. Seems reasonable to expect that effectively all gas stoves in the US will be replaced at least once in the next 50 years. > great poli…

It’s a balancing test. Cooking on electric stoves is a far worse experience than cooking on gas. Induction stovetops are somewhat better than the classical electric tops that generate heat through resistance, but only somewhat. I am stuck using an electric stovetop, and will replace it with an induction one soon, but I would switch to gas in a heartbeat if it were available.

Induction is not electric in English? Btw my induction stove heats up everything way quicker than any gas stove which I ever used.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#656

Post by ruszki » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 5:57 AM UTC

pclmulqdq wrote: post #468

tcfhgj wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single thing is a drop in a bucket. Still the drops make a full bucket in the end

Why do we frequently go after the drops that cause a lot of headache and inconvenience, then?

A modern induction stove causes headache and inconvenience? How exactly?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#657

Post by sintezcs » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 6:00 AM UTC

In Russia (despite one of the the cheapest gas prices for consumers) they are already ignoring gas for years. I think 95% of new buildings during the past 20 years or so were built without gas. So you end up with electrical stove and oven. The reason? It’s just cheaper and simpler for construction companies. There are a lot of regulations coming in if you decide to use natural gas in a new building, thus resulting in more expensive project, longer construction time and much more difficult acceptance procedures. Construction companies just prefer to ignore all these problems and use electricity instead.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#658

Post by lostlogin » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 6:09 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #560

crooked-v wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you're conflating resistance cooktops (the kind with coils that heat up) and induction cooktops (which use EM fields to transfer energy directly into the pan). Resistance cooktops are slow and weak, but induction cooktops are just plain better than gas (faster to heat across the entire temperature range, better temperature control) in pretty much every case except when needing a pan that doesn't fit the ind…

Yeah, and if you’re talking about poor people, what electric stove will their apartment have, resistance or induction? And will they have induction safe cookware? Banning gas stoves would be a huge blow to all the immigrants who rely on cooking techniques (like woks) that don’t work well on resistance coils, and require expensive special equipment to work on induction.

> And will they have induction safe cookware?

Cant you just put a steel plate under any pan, and then it’s induction compatible?

Ideally you’d have compatible pans, but you don’t have to.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#659

Post by lostlogin » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 6:19 AM UTC

otterley wrote: post #564

crooked-v wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you're conflating resistance cooktops (the kind with coils that heat up) and induction cooktops (which use EM fields to transfer energy directly into the pan). Resistance cooktops are slow and weak, but induction cooktops are just plain better than gas (faster to heat across the entire temperature range, better temperature control) in pretty much every case except when needing a pan that doesn't fit the ind…

Induction cooktops are like 3-5x the cost of resistive ones, and so very few homes for rent -even ones with electric cooktops - have them.

Are they?

New Zealand is ludicrous marked up in terms of consumer goods, and I’ve just checked pricing. The cheapest is resistive electric. Then fractionally more is gas. Induction costs approximately double for 4 hobs (for 2 hobs it’s about 50% more than resistive).

If you count installation, both electric options are going to be less expensive than gas. If the big cable needs running for induction, the cost might be similar to gas.

Not factored in, cleaning. My god is induction nice to maintain.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#660

Post by lostlogin » Sun, Apr 30, 2023, 6:20 AM UTC

eulgro wrote: post #581

crooked-v wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you're conflating resistance cooktops (the kind with coils that heat up) and induction cooktops (which use EM fields to transfer energy directly into the pan). Resistance cooktops are slow and weak, but induction cooktops are just plain better than gas (faster to heat across the entire temperature range, better temperature control) in pretty much every case except when needing a pan that doesn't fit the ind…

> Resistance cooktops are slow and weak Resistive is just fine. No way I'm throwing out my 20 years old stove to save 2 minutes boiling water. Once the coil is red hot there's virtually no time difference with induction.

I’d challenge anything to a race with a decent induction cooktop. I doubt gas is quicker, it’s silly fast to boil water.

That said, upgrading for this reason would be very silly.