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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#611

Post by timssopomo »

lumb63 wrote: post #213
LazyMans wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not too cold in New York for heat pumps. With 20 year old technology yes, it would have required supplemental heat. Not anymore though, not until you get down around -25/-30f, at that point a resistive heater kicks in to assist.

Perhaps I worded my comment incorrectly. Yes, heat pumps can work in New York. But, a backup heat system in that climate would be prudent.

I live in upstate NY - plenty of people rely on heat pumps as a primary source. You need backup systems for natural gas and oil in this climate too, for what it's worth. They won't run when the power goes out.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#612

Post by baggy_trough »

justeleblanc wrote: post #473
iamdamian wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate you digging up this information, this is exactly what's been lacking in press coverage of the issue. If you're telling me that fully eliminating gas stoves in the U.S. (something that will not happen in our lifetimes and will come at great political and personal cost) is going to reduce U.S.-specific emissions by just 1%, I think I'm even more convinced that this regulation should not have been passed. W…

We can get rid of a whole percent in emissions by giving up nothing important, and you think it's not a regulation that the government should pass?! What should the threshold for a regulation to pass, in your opinion? Should it cut single-handedly emissions by 2% on its own? 5%? 10%? 50%?

You think it’s nothing important. Others disagree, and get angry when they are forced to obey your preferences.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#613

Post by Freedom2 »

tptacek wrote: post #609
rayiner wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and if you’re talking about poor people, what electric stove will their apartment have, resistance or induction? And will they have induction safe cookware? Banning gas stoves would be a huge blow to all the immigrants who rely on cooking techniques (like woks) that don’t work well on resistance coils, and require expensive special equipment to work on induction.

People in China routinely use woks on electric stoves; they're just as common in China as they are here. There's a lot of mythology about woks and wok hei, most of which is based on people confusing restaurant cooking techniques with home cooking. This issue isn't racially coded.

This is my experience as well. I've spoken to Chinese co-workers who cook a lot of traditional food at home, and they have zero issues with electric stoves (induction or no) for cooking with a wok.

As for those who claim that gas stoves are needed for wok cooking w/ specific techniques, most people who I've actually asked about what they cook on the wok is basically "fried rice", or even worse, they don't actually have a wok at all, and are using the issue as a strawman to complain about government overreach.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#614

Post by aaomidi »

mikeg8 wrote: post #237
aaomidi wrote: post #81

This is a stupid idea for rural NY. Way to increase the cost of living here… Like, this is why people in rural areas hate big cities. This is completely fair for NYC. Not for the rest of NY. Not without a lot of investment from the government. You’re effectively left with oil, wood, and electric heat. All three have a lot of their own problems and difficulties.

Just curious, as I’m not in the NY area but are most rural homes over there on natural gas or propane? In rural parts of CA, people have propane tanks in the yard which wouldn’t be effected by this. Natural gas infrastructure seems to diminish further from cities, so I’m wondering how much this actually effects rural residents

Ah I see, it excludes those tanks... Makes sense now.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#615

Post by AdamJacobMuller »

kibwen wrote: post #523
nemo44x wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gas alliances are significantly cheaper to run. Also perform better. Gas dryers are awesome compared to electric for example. Plus electric goes out often. Gas doesn’t.

> Plus electric goes out often. Gas doesn’t. Most gas appliances also require electricity to run, and in addition the broader gas infrastructure itself requires electricity to compress the gas so that it reaches the consumer. There's no getting around the need for reliable electric infrastructure; centralized gas infrastructure won't save you from unreliable electricity.

> centralized gas infrastructure won't save you from unreliable electricity

It absolutely will and the gas infrastructure is far more reliable than the electricity one.

My gas fired boiler can heat my house for days running off my Yeti battery pack.

That same Yeti couldn't put a dent in the cold weather we had this year.

Running my generator (on LP or NG or Gasoline) would allow me to keep my boiler running effectively indefinitely. Heating my home directly would be way more dangerous.

While you're correct that it's possible that NG supply can be disrupted, it's far less vulnerable to disruption than electricity. The natural gas supply is entirely underground and the natural gas infrastructure you're talking about that requires compression to pump to consumers has a built-in supply of fuel for running generators to generate electricity to run those compressors in an emergency.

There were innumerable electricity disruptions where I live in the almost 40 years I've lived here. Mostly short ones (under one hour) but several much longer ones (12+ hours). Without NG heat in my home I would have been forced to evacuate on a number of occasions. I've had one, single, disruption to my NG supply in 40 years. PSE&G found a leak in the gas lines in our street, this didn't cause a supply disruption however but put us (and a lot of our town somehow) on an expedited list to have all of our NG lines replaced. PSE&G came around and trenched in new high-pressure gas lines along the streets (still not disrupting our supply) and then a few weeks later they individually came and swapped each home to utilize the new high-pressure gas by fishing a smaller HP PEX pipe down the old gas pipe from our old service. No new trench from street-house, just a pit in the street and a pit alongside our foundation and a new exterior meter and pressure regulator. Exceedingly well done process and incredibly smooth. They even had a cool soft-tracked excavator so it didn't damage our lawn! Total outage was about 2 hours. How many nines of reliability is two hours of outage in 40 years?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#616

Post by AdamJacobMuller »

dschuler wrote: post #425
cogman10 wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are more reasons to ban gas in buildings than just global warming. There's the fact that you are actually burning fuel, which released noxious fumes into the home [1]. There's mounting evidence that this sort of exposure has pretty negative health implications [2] Gas is also inherently dangerous, more-so than electricity. There's been more than a few examples of exploded homes/buildings due to gas leaks [3]. A…

Newer gas stoves turn off automatically when they don’t detect a flame, but I’ve only seen those in Europe so far.

My Bosch stove does this. It runs the igniter continuously when it doesn't detect a flame and if you do something to preclude the ignitor from working (I was testing something, don't ask), the gas flow stops after about 15 seconds!

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#617

Post by joshuamorton »

ivalm wrote: post #484
pipodeclown wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does that even mean? Did you not get the whole, burning hydrocarbons is bad for the climate memo? We have to stop all net carbon emmissions in the next fifteen years or were screwed (propably already are) and twats like you keep going online spouting your 'i don't buy the climate argument' bullshit. We're literally talking about burning hydrocarbons to heat stuff, how the hell can you say that you don't buy the…

We’ll muddle through. At any rate, the point is to focus on low hanging fruit —- target high emitters, an electric stove powered by a coal plant is worse than a natural gas stove.

This is actually probably untrue. Gas stoves produce a huge amount of waste heat (==extra fuel burned) that isn't produced by electric.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#618

Post by plandis »

Panzer04 wrote: post #577

Good for them. Heat pumps obviate the need for gas heating, and gas stoves aren’t worth the trouble with induction posing a reasonable alternative.

I have a heat pump and there are definitely days where it’s so cold it cannot heat my home fast enough and it’s rather uncomfortable and I’m in a zone where heat pumps in theory should be all you need. Geothermal heat pumps are comparatively very expensive (I looked into that initially)

I love my induction stove though. But I’ll admit it’s more expensive than a gas stove and you need to make sure all your cookware works with induction. It definitely wasn’t cheap to make the switch.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#620

Post by plandis »

WalterBright wrote: post #101
JamisonM wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator.." Likewise for a heat pump, right? Does this "power out for days after a winter storm" thing actually happen very often? I am from Manitoba and my worst-ever experience was 10-11 hours when it was very, very cold out in 35+ years.

It's been out for 10 days at a time in Seattle.

Where in Seattle?
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