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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#601

Post by pclmulqdq »

sonarone wrote: post #595
pclmulqdq wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ADDITION / CORRECTION This article has been corrected. View the notice. The studies on this are questionable at best regarding the health effects, and it is disingenuous to say that the science on this is anywhere near settled - plenty of refutations exist out there. If you're worried, open a window.

Clicking on the correction shows that correction is just on a single figure, so that's not supporting your argument: > A corrected version of Figure 3 is below, where in Panel A r2 = 0.59 is changed to r2 = 0.58.

Yeah, I generally follow the idea that if a paper has one revealed error, it probably has a lot more errors that they didn't provide enough evidence to catch, so I didn't read what the correction was. This is a pretty dumb error to get through the writing process.

Also, if you want to see some well-cited posts on the tenuous evidence of health effects of NOx, other posts in this comments section have plenty of sources. Even the link to asthma is pretty tenuous, apparently.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#602

Post by dmix »

topaz0 wrote: post #311
whiddershins wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. Most normal people in nyc have gas stoves and they are massively superior in every way to a typical electric range. Induction cooktops can be nice, but they are more expensive last I checked, and impose lots of limitations on what cookware you can use, including making it infeasible to use high end copper bottom French sauté pans, which also happen to be very hard to match the performance of. It is abs…

If you try to do exactly what you were doing on the gas stove in the same way, you will have a bad time, but my and many other people's experience is that a decent electric stove is perfectly capable of making good food once you figure out how to use it. Electric stoves in general can heat faster than gas, and in my experience heat more evenly (no hot spots), so you don't need the crutch of a copper bottom to conduct…

[flagged]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#603

Post by skipkey »

rlg2161 wrote: post #537
iamdamian wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate you digging up this information, this is exactly what's been lacking in press coverage of the issue. If you're telling me that fully eliminating gas stoves in the U.S. (something that will not happen in our lifetimes and will come at great political and personal cost) is going to reduce U.S.-specific emissions by just 1%, I think I'm even more convinced that this regulation should not have been passed. W…

> something that will not happen in our lifetimes Not sure where you’re coming up with this - the average modern gas stove is expected to last 13-15 years [1]. Obviously there are exceptions but we can expect 95%+ of this infra to be replaced in 20 years just due to equipment failure. Seems reasonable to expect that effectively all gas stoves in the US will be replaced at least once in the next 50 years. > great poli…

It’s a balancing test. Cooking on electric stoves is a far worse experience than cooking on gas. Induction stovetops are somewhat better than the classical electric tops that generate heat through resistance, but only somewhat.

I am stuck using an electric stovetop, and will replace it with an induction one soon, but I would switch to gas in a heartbeat if it were available.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#604

Post by lazide »

jnwatson wrote: post #411
iamdamian wrote: post #365

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

I don’t buy the climate argument. However, banning gas appliances comes from the same place as banning lead paint. Gas appliances are a major source of indoor pollution. Gas heating leaks pollution inside the home, especially as furnaces age. Plus, many residents don’t own their own property. This helps protect renters.

Bwahahaha this is so ridiculous.

This isn’t even on the same planet as lead paint.

All this does is saddle folks with shittier, more expensive options in the name of ‘green’.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#605

Post by lazide »

azemetre wrote: post #514
iamdamian wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are common in New York and may even be required by residential building code: https://up.codes/viewer/new_york/irc-2018/chapter/15/exhaust... (Note: I'm a New Yorker but not an expert in building code.)

ah that makes more sense, like those 15+ story buildings? I should have clarified my comment was in regards to SFH or triple deckers. I would honestly think it would be easier to implement in SFH but I'm guessing it's mostly due to developers cutting costs and that there is no regulation to actually make a viable one.

It would be pretty easy to do in a large building - they already have plenums for hvac, external exhaust is not much different.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#606

Post by lotsoweiners »

danans wrote: post #253
nuancebydefault wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is a bit of a tangent but... shouldn't the world as a whole not be thinking about how to consume less in stead of obsessing with how to do the clean energy transition, without changing our habits a bit? If you think about it, there is still plenty of room for optimizing our energy consumption. The trend seems to be, replace the gasoline car not with a more fuel efficient one but rather with a car weighing…

> Car pooling. > Electric bicycles > Insulate your house better? > Taking turns with neighbours to do grocery shopping or bringing kids to school. > Try to repair stuff in stead of bying new. > Drying clothes with renewable wind energy. (a hanging rack) People do these things anyways with the right incentives, just to save time and money. But we still need to get off of fossil fuels for transportation and electricity…

> Car pooling. I work from home and hate riding/coordinating with others so I’ll alway just go on my own.

> Electric bicycles

I only ride bicycles for exercise or as an activity but never to go somewhere. I’m no longer 12.

> Insulate your house better?

If the government wants to use my tax dollars for this instead of SNAP/TANF then I’m all for them paying for it but it’s not going to be me paying.

> Taking turns with neighbours to do grocery shopping or bringing kids to school.

See point #1

> Try to repair stuff in stead of bying new.

I do this where possible because I’m cheap but I doubt it is any kind of significant savings of energy.

> Drying clothes with renewable wind energy. (a hanging rack)

Now I’ve got clean clothes covered in dust and pollen. Thanks.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#607

Post by rayiner »

zarzavat wrote: post #587
rayiner wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and if you’re talking about poor people, what electric stove will their apartment have, resistance or induction? And will they have induction safe cookware? Banning gas stoves would be a huge blow to all the immigrants who rely on cooking techniques (like woks) that don’t work well on resistance coils, and require expensive special equipment to work on induction.

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Is the racism unintentional? Asians always seem to be the target of western moral panics about the environment.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#608

Post by AdamJacobMuller »

crooked-v wrote: post #544
apnew wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also _rent_. I hate food cooked on electric stoves, so when I was looking to rent, anything that dint have gas stove was automatic non-starter for me. This whole argument that “you oppose a forced choice so you must hate poor people” is just a straw-man. Just because you prefer things one way doesn’t mean govt has a business telling me how I should cook my food.

I suspect you're conflating resistance cooktops (the kind with coils that heat up) and induction cooktops (which use EM fields to transfer energy directly into the pan). Resistance cooktops are slow and weak, but induction cooktops are just plain better than gas (faster to heat across the entire temperature range, better temperature control) in pretty much every case except when needing a pan that doesn't fit the ind…

And if the government mandates electric stoves, which of those (restive or inductive) do you think the landlords of cheaper apartments are going to pick?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#609

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #560
crooked-v wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you're conflating resistance cooktops (the kind with coils that heat up) and induction cooktops (which use EM fields to transfer energy directly into the pan). Resistance cooktops are slow and weak, but induction cooktops are just plain better than gas (faster to heat across the entire temperature range, better temperature control) in pretty much every case except when needing a pan that doesn't fit the ind…

Yeah, and if you’re talking about poor people, what electric stove will their apartment have, resistance or induction? And will they have induction safe cookware? Banning gas stoves would be a huge blow to all the immigrants who rely on cooking techniques (like woks) that don’t work well on resistance coils, and require expensive special equipment to work on induction.

People in China routinely use woks on electric stoves; they're just as common in China as they are here. There's a lot of mythology about woks and wok hei, most of which is based on people confusing restaurant cooking techniques with home cooking. This issue isn't racially coded.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#610

Post by bobsmooth »

nonethewiser wrote: post #398
downut wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious how one pops popcorn, shakes a pan, throws the pan, and heats the sides of the pan when eg reducing stock. How do woks work, exactly, on an induction burner? Why does spilling liquids cause the problems I encountered? Why does the bottom of the pans have to be perfectly flat? Some of my cast iron skillets (whoops never mind) are 50 years or more old and are not perfectly flat. They cook fantastic on a ga…

Charring peppers

Buy a blowtorch.
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