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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#591
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not only particulate matter but gaseous combustion products that are the problem, and gas stoves are used for a LOT more than only searing protein, starting with heating tea water. Also, just because searing protein produces bad indoor pollution, doesn't mean that any other pollution should therefore be automatically ignored. It is purely optional whether you want to use your stove to sear protein (e.g., you wo…

> but you don't really have an option if the only thing installed is a gas stove to heat your tea water or saute your onions... A cheap electric kettle or standalone burner is an option, isn't it? And doesn't the research indicate that fume hoods help regardless?

Sure, if you are into buying extra appliances when you already paid for one.

And what about when you want to bake or broil something?

& yes, fume hoods do help, with "help" doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. They also need to be turned on to work (not likely every time you heat a pot of tea), and are noisy, and waste even more heat, blowing out cubic meters of already heated/cooled air to exhaust milligrams of pollutants. Always better to never generate the pollutants in the first place.

And for the societal-level goals of reducing climate change and improving public health, it is best to do it at a societal scale, not making every individual go and spend resources to redo and workaround the work that has already been done. Far better to just not install the polluting infrastructure in the first place.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#592
post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty big miss on that particular statistic don’t you think? It’s like if your a top basketball player but you come last in movement speed.

It is absolutely a big miss, but it's in the context of long tail events (in the magnitude of the event severity), which California by its very nature experiences more than most other large population states: relentless storms, heat waves, wildfires. Should California utilities be better at restoring power in these situations? Absolutely, and we shouldn't cut them much slack in that regard. But that doesn't mean it's…

I’m from a third world country, and now live in the Bay.

To give you context our place in SA was having a couple hours loadshedding a day, and here in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods our power was gone for three fucking weeks, and just yesterday was in and out three times.

It’s absolutely third world country level when the weather is anything but exactly 70 degrees. You have zero idea what you’re talking about, the original guy is correct.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#593
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that a feature? ...interesting :) Our stoves here usually have some heat-based protection, where you have to hold the knob pressed in until a tiny rod heats up (usually 2, 3 seconds) and after that you can release it and the gas will stay on. Without power, you just need a ligher (or anything releasing a spark) to ignite the gas. Also, the default configuration for gas stoves is 3x gas cooktop + 1x electric, s…

I've used the design you're describing with a heat-based valve, and it's definitely superior. I've never seen a cooktop with both gas and electric - is this redundancy in case one service or the other is interrupted?

I have no idea what the reasoning behind it was then, but it was a standard carried over from yugoslav times (usually 3 gas + 1 electric or 2+2) :) So yeah, could be redundancy...

https://i.imgur.com/rHDaZxm.png https://i.imgur.com/RJkq5GK.png ) :)

The modern variants look more like this: https://i.imgur.com/iJvKQjy.png or with inductive heat instead of resistive: https://i.imgur.com/BOetXJz.png

I remember only one gas outage (some repair work done somewhere and they closed the valves) but there were quite a few power outages, where you had to use a lighter.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and the price of electricity is plummeting thanks to renewables. Not according to sources I can find. EIA forecasts for the long term project continued increases through 2050 [1] Maybe in locations elsewhere in the world? Or specific states in the US? Certainly not where I live, which is aggressively pursuing renewables and despite this prices continue to increase, and were doing so before the spike in natural gas p…

That's nominal price, their inflation adjusted prices, which they also provide, drop.

Good point, I missed that. But that is still very far from plummeting. It’s a very gradual decline that assumes inflation stays above 2% (though that is probably a reasonable assumption)

I hope they will plummet, I just don’t see much pointing in that direction right now.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#595
post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are putting hundreds of times more harmful particulates into the air than the stove puts out alone. This is true and entirely misses the point. A gas stove emits NOx. Cooking some foods at high temperature emits particulates. Different cause, different poison. Also, an air filter can easily remove particulates, but getting rid of NOx with anything other than outright replacement of the air is not so easy. edit:…

> ADDITION / CORRECTION This article has been corrected. View the notice. The studies on this are questionable at best regarding the health effects, and it is disingenuous to say that the science on this is anywhere near settled - plenty of refutations exist out there. If you're worried, open a window.

Clicking on the correction shows that correction is just on a single figure, so that's not supporting your argument:

> A corrected version of Figure 3 is below, where in Panel A r2 = 0.59 is changed to r2 = 0.58.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#596
post #521
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I _rent_ a home, as do a full half of new york state residents. I'd love an electric stove. Every rental I've ever lived in has a gas stove and no fume hood. The full half of new yorkers who rent - almost 20 million people - mostly get whatever theirlandlord picked. So when I read posts like this, decrying government overreach, I wonder if you've ever been poor? Have you ever lived here? Do you know what youre talkin…

I also _rent_. I hate food cooked on electric stoves, so when I was looking to rent, anything that dint have gas stove was automatic non-starter for me. This whole argument that “you oppose a forced choice so you must hate poor people” is just a straw-man. Just because you prefer things one way doesn’t mean govt has a business telling me how I should cook my food.

require them in rentals?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#597

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

It’s a lot easier to just ban stuff than to regulate things so they’re done properly. I’m sure if building inspectors did an unannounced tour of 100 random apartment buildings in New York they’d find a list of code violations a mile long.

That doesn't make banning suddenly better because regulation/codes are so broken.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#598
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The total effect on health seems rather debatable, and even if so there are better solutions (e.g. minimum ventilation requirements) for that. Total bans on products people use and can enjoy responsibility due to potential health risks is nearly always a bad idea in my opinion. Just look at smoking in the US, for example, which recently hit an all time low. We could have gone the prohibition route (and we can guess h…

Smoking remains the leading cause of preventable disease, disability, and death in the United States. • 40% of cancer deaths are related to smoking • 80% of lung cancer deaths are related to smoking • 33% of heart disease deaths are related to smoking There's over half a million deaths a year from smoking and 10% are second hand smoking related. I’m not quite sure we can call this a win yet.

of course we can. big tobacco can't get away with lying about risks any more so new smokers know what they're getting into

the plain packaging stuff is moving past people taking informed risks (even if i think they're stupid ones) and towards overt control of behavior for technocratic reasons. which explains why there's way more uptake for it in europe and australia than here

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#599

This regulation feels quite frustrating to me, and several comments in this thread illustrate why. This change is being promoted as a critical step in the fight against climate change. (See most news articles over the past two years covering this.) But when you dig into the details, it seems like the regulation may not have much effect on climate change at all. When you point this out to advocates, you'll get an enti…

I don’t buy the climate argument. However, banning gas appliances comes from the same place as banning lead paint. Gas appliances are a major source of indoor pollution. Gas heating leaks pollution inside the home, especially as furnaces age. Plus, many residents don’t own their own property. This helps protect renters.

im from a part of the country where we get hurricanes

the power will go out and usually we also have a boil water notice

for those days it is extremely helpful to have a gas stove, we can still cook and get clean water rather than just eating cold cans and hoping we have enough bottles

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I’ve read the same indoor pollution exists with induction even if not vented. The confounding variable is that induction generally is present in new construction which will have proper ventilation. TLDR: it’s a function of ventilation

Cooking itself releases a bunch of stuff that isnt great regardless of stove its entirely on the ventilation.

this is why all yall need to start grilling :D

tho i admit it kinda sucks ass when it's 100 degrees

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