I have a bad feeling about this • Hacker News Board

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#161

Post by mathattack » Fri, Feb 10, 2012, 12:16 AM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #112

mathattack wrote: post #99

Every business likes to buy from perfect competition and sell as a monopoly. This keeps input prices low and output prices high. This model is so profitable that companies bribe politicians to maintain it. Donating to a SuperPAC is more cost effective than R and D and has anshoeter payback. I see 2 ways of fighting this: 1) Civil disobedience - Pirate everything and share while willingly accepting the consequences. 2…

> Great social change requires number 1. Movie studios and the recording industry can, at best, delay the inevitable. Artificial scarcities are against the laws of thermodynamics. Of all the money these industries make, only the tiniest fraction of it goes to the people who actually produced the good. Most of it is inefficiently applied in side operations such as promoting sales, manufacturing the physical support fo…

Fair points though the Internet delivery model won't make advertising or sales promortion go away. More efficient, yes, but not gone.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#162

Post by moonchrome » Fri, Feb 10, 2012, 2:43 AM UTC

Wilduck wrote: post #158

moonchrome wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What unit would you use to measure the value it provides, if not money? I'm against quantifying it at all because, while useful, price is a very limited metric. There are numerous cases where you can increase the transaction sum and achieve 0 value increase, eg. monopolistic pricing in a market with inelastic demand or bad investing (destroying capital) or externalities, etc. >I don't understand the point you're mak…

> knowledge is a non-rivalrous non-excludable good You sound like you know what you're talking about here. What you're claiming is that digital media is a public good. I can live with that definition. It's certainly non-rival, and in practice is fairly non-excludable. You then go on to claim that companies should just find a way to survive without copyright. The problem with this approach is that the creation of thes…

I would prefer to approach it as public good that is protected against market failure in few selective cases. I don't like that approach but it's an improvement over treating knowledge as private property/granting legal monopolies.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#163

Post by moonchrome » Fri, Feb 10, 2012, 3:11 AM UTC

cgoddard wrote: post #152

moonchrome wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I read your words, but all I hear you saying is "I want free media". All the media I consume nowdays is free, news, learning resources, youtube vids etc. Apart from going to cinema (but even that started to suck), and music from local bands that I pay for to support the artist. So nope, I don't want any media. >Do you fundamentally disbelieve in the concept of paying someone for the use/enjoyment of IP they produced…

That's a great idea! Provide funding for movies solely with advertising! I'm sure that will result in no conflicts of interest that will severely compromise artistic vision and reduce people to no better than buying machines. I'm all for free flow of information and such, and the abolition of software patents and other substantial types of patent reform, but this kind of naive radicalism against all IP protection dil…

Cinema is a nice way to exclude people from your property. You can mandate no-camera and tighten the security for releases.

I have no entitlement complex, as I've said already I don't mind paying for cinema tickets and I don't even use other commercial media. If you're referring to focusing only on consumers and ignoring what's "fair" for the producer, they you are right, but also fail to understand the point of a market system - consumers are entitled, the whole system is designed to satisfy their needs, producers are meant to fight each other to do so and get the best results for the least amount of money. So yes starving artists - you don't have rights that trump the rights of the consumer.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#164

Post by pbhjpbhj » Fri, Feb 10, 2012, 4:00 AM UTC

Wilduck wrote: post #158

moonchrome wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What unit would you use to measure the value it provides, if not money? I'm against quantifying it at all because, while useful, price is a very limited metric. There are numerous cases where you can increase the transaction sum and achieve 0 value increase, eg. monopolistic pricing in a market with inelastic demand or bad investing (destroying capital) or externalities, etc. >I don't understand the point you're mak…

> knowledge is a non-rivalrous non-excludable good You sound like you know what you're talking about here. What you're claiming is that digital media is a public good. I can live with that definition. It's certainly non-rival, and in practice is fairly non-excludable. You then go on to claim that companies should just find a way to survive without copyright. The problem with this approach is that the creation of thes…

Copyright is monopoly protection granted on your works by the demos on the assumption of that work becoming freely available to the public domain in a reasonable time.

If your work is not going to enter the public domain then there's no contract - the state then is enforcing a monopoly against the interests of the people.

Disney can make a profit of 100s of millions on a movie within a few years. They don't need anything like as much as 20 years.

They will of course retain their trademarks, and I think this is only right in a realistic IP environment.

>relaxed copyright laws //

Relaxation general means less strict or less firmly applied. This suggests an assumption that the state should grant a monopoly - there should be no such assumption but instead the application of a strict limited time contract in accordance with the original purposes of the law.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#165

Post by pbhjpbhj » Fri, Feb 10, 2012, 4:09 AM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #103

edanm wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a sob story. It's basic logic. You haven't refuted anything I've said, except for claiming that the story is one given by the likes of Disney and the RIAA, which is irrelevant and untrue. The only valid argument you've said is that people create art for reasons other than making money. Which is of course partially true. But obviously, to a lesser extent. I'm sure many people on HN would still program without…

The absolute overwhelming majority of software produced is not affected by copyright, since it's never distributed, it's only used internally in companies. There is also a large amount of BSD-style licensed software out there, that won't go away if copyright goes away, because it's already free. Of course a part of the software industry is about producing proprietary software for sale, but that's a small part of the…

>not affected by copyright, since it's never distributed //

Copyright is automatic at the point of creation for a work that qualifies under the Berne Convention; it does not have a distribution requirement.

>a large amount of BSD-style licensed software out there, that won't go away if copyright goes away //

Actually it will. All open-source licenses rely on the person applying the license to hold the copyright, copyright is what gives them the right to demand that the license terms be adhered too.

Personally I would not like to see copyright disappear completely as I think this would be a disaster for those creating 'works'. A reasonable term is what's required IMO; possibly with an extended term of moral rights.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#166

Post by twainer » Fri, Feb 10, 2012, 5:21 AM UTC

Helianthus wrote: post #47

twainer wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go ahead - look through all my comments I've written on IP. When you know what I am saying, you'll know I am not saying one should play by the rules - I never have in my life, that's for sure. And yes - the current urge is selfish - as you point out it grows out of having taken a freedom - not having worked to be 'granted' anything - and then had that freedom 'revoked'. There is always a greater good. I am 100% for u…

>And yes - the current urge is selfish - as you point out it grows out of having taken a freedom - not having worked to be 'granted' anything - and then had that freedom 'revoked'. I suppose that is accurate as far as it goes, but labeling that "selfish" seems to be a point of view connotation rather than a necessary one. That is to say, whether or not a thing is a right or an overzealous demand is in the eye of the…

In my eyes, your take on things is very far from the live-and-let-live stance that you appear to want to adopt. It's more like social engineering.

You continue to be free to do your art for free and without concern for profit; in no way does someone else doing their art for profit affect your ability to make your choice. So what gives you the right to champion something that 'removes economic concern from the art'? How does your desire not to have your output be property - totally your choice - square with your desire to deny choice to others?

Another point oft-heard is that 'people won't stop making art' - which is a selfish, parasitic argument if I have every heard one. For years I worked producing independent musicians - you might not pay for art that you experience, but I assure you someone does - there is no free lunch.

I have seen indie musicians burn tens of thousands trying to monetize their art; have seen marriages and relationships end - and careers end. My point here isn't about piracy - a much more important point is for consumers to respect the work that goes into the content they consume. The art you consume 'freely' may appeal to your idealistic side, as though you are removing commerce from art - but all you are actually doing is turning a blind eye to the cost. There is always someone paying a price so that you might have it for 'free'.

Once upon a time, people grew their own foods, hunted them - people worked with their hands -people had an intrinsic sense of the burden of production. I think one bad side-effect of the internet is that it has removed people so far from the means of production that they are incapable of appreciating the work that goes into what appears in front of them.

I am not trying to be too pejorative, but it really is like a child who is used to just stating their urge - whether for food, drink, or sleep - and having a benevolent force [parents] provide those things on-demand.

We have fair-trade products from a to z and yet the work of artists isn't worth .01. Really??

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#167

Post by shoham » Fri, Feb 10, 2012, 5:34 AM UTC

angersock wrote: post #136

shoham wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, as an independent, 'starving' artist myself, I take exception to all this happy talk about making information free. It's already hard enough to make a living off of music, or any art, and I'm no fan of the monopolies, but it's incredibly obnoxious when I hear all this stuff about just give all of your work away for free with no path to eventual prosperity, and how "It's the producers problem, why don't they mak…

So, you do realize that the information is free to duplicate, right? And that there is no way of ensuring you get paid for rent on a resource you can't control the duplication of--at least without causing massive headaches for everyone else? Dude, sell tickets to shows, sell merch at shows, don't perform unless paid before hand. If all else fails, consider that maybe you don't have a product worth buying, and then im…

You're an ass. No, it's not FREE to duplicate. It costs money to duplicate and distribute licensed copies of other people's work. And it's not information, it's art. The massive headache you feel is called honor. You're from a culture that now calls stealing liberty. Brave new world, indeed.

Dude, sell tickets to shows, sell merch at shows, don't perform unless paid before hand.

You're an ass.

If all else fails, consider that maybe you don't have a product worth buying, and then improve or leave.

You're an ass.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#168

Post by c3ouieu28763 » Fri, Feb 10, 2012, 5:35 AM UTC

You are wrong and I am 'insulted.' My name is C3pio- the descendant of the famous - infamous Chinese poet. My model is chinese-american, duty lifetime 55+, similar environment.

Of course, I have worked for wall street, nuke plants and dot com or dot boombs, but aint rich.

1.on the final rocketship ride the robot sacrifices himself in the position of 'rear gunner.' The death star is stopped.

2.diverse, strange discussion is helpful. 3.Confucious saying I meet three class of persons: one I learn from as role model one I learn as ANTI-model, to avoid his bad character one I learn from to be amused and just happy - that is C3Pio

4.of course, my character is resurrected in the MATRIX

5.unlike the droids that lack COURAGE, COURAGE is the universal PROTOCOL. Call it faith, hope, being a small bit player on the SHAKESPEAREAN stage of life.

Shame on you! Without your early pathetic experiences with phone MODEMS and secretly reading '2600' and MEETING CAPTAIN CRUNCH at the germany rave you would not be the DROID...errror MAN or human that you are.

My the BUDDHA be with you! and may you be re-incarnated as a small insect flying droid. One that takes down the preadator drones. The battle of empire continues.

afterword: thats to my Czech cousins. RUR - Rossum's Universal Robots. Many think C3pio is talking in modem. WRONG again. He talks in protocol-hybrid-neo-Czech.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#169

Post by shoham » Fri, Feb 10, 2012, 5:43 AM UTC

angersock wrote: post #143

shoham wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Screw the producers" With all respect to you as a person, fuck that. I'm an independent artist and I don't want to be screwed. Consumers tend to get what they want and eat what they're told to. It's small, independent businesses and artists who shape, have shaped, and will always shape the world that you live. you're welcome.

"It's small, independent businesses and artists who shape, have shaped, and will always shape the world that you live." General Electric, Du Pont, Mobil, AT&T, Sun, Oracle, Microsoft, and Google certainly have been overshadowed by the powerful snowflakes of the world!

All of which started out as tiny businesses. And it's true most businesses that are successful are NOT internationally renowned. There are hundreds of millions of small businesses worldwide that keep it turning, friend.

The supply chain is much more diverse and interesting than you think, and most growth comes from new starts that will become <250K a year top line revenue corporations. These are the kinds of businesses who buy licensed copies of Office for instance, adwords, and adsense ads as well...

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#170

Post by shoham » Fri, Feb 10, 2012, 5:47 AM UTC

figglesonrails wrote: post #141

shoham wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Screw the producers" With all respect to you as a person, fuck that. I'm an independent artist and I don't want to be screwed. Consumers tend to get what they want and eat what they're told to. It's small, independent businesses and artists who shape, have shaped, and will always shape the world that you live. you're welcome.

Agreed that consumers can be sheep. Here's the problem though: the (BIG) producers are using various means inaccessible to smaller ones to change laws. And not in small way. And not in a way that benefits consumers. People who get uptight about independent artists having their works digitally copied probably don't realize that this is a good thing. It means they are popular, it means people desire them, it means ther…

What I didn't like specifically was "screw the producers". I'm optimistic about the future of my craft, for sure, but I'm not on the happy talk information is free bandwagon, I'm just not. If I mark a tune as CC, so be it, otherwise it's All rights reserved. I don't encourage piracy, even if it's 'good for me', and that's a traditional system worth making peace with, called an honor system.