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Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

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Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#171
post #136
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the percentage of food they produce that is thrown into landfills (and turns to methane) The last time I tried to advocate for replacing landfills with incinerators on HN, someone came along to insist that methane recapture from landfills was possible and preferable (methane is useful, if you can confine it). I haven't had time to study that further, but managing food waste — aside from the actual lack of food it ca…

Food is thrown away because grocery stores want to sell uniform looking produce with no blemishes, and consumers came to expect that. That is the largest reason they get sent to the landfill, with growers have been sending it there before they get shipped. There is a lot of waste going on here because: - Consumers turn their noses on perfectly edible food that looks ugly. (There are volunteer organizations that inter…

>But more importantly, the biggest issue is that the trapped methane in landfills is no longer bioavailable, and participating in the ecologies in the carbon cycle.

This fundamentally misunderstands what the carbon cycle is. The amount of carbon in the carbon cycle has dramatically increased since the Industrial Revolution, and the quantity of carbon locked into landfills is not significant compared to the absorption of carbon by rock weathering. The carbon cycle per se is certainly not under threat from present human activities, although the Earth will slowly absorb carbon dioxide over the next billion years until it becomes uninhabitable, according to current projections.

Furthermore, methane, an inert gas with low solubility, is not trapped in landfills. The capture scheme I described would eventually convert it to carbon dioxide and possibly store that carbon dioxide, but regardless, it's a very small amount of carbon compared to other emissions sources.

>and atmospheric methane isn’t as big of a deal as say, soil depletion, soil temperature, oceanic acidification

None of these problems are seriously related to food waste management. You might as well insist that methane emissions are not as important as nuclear war.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#172
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> sustainable While we're solving for human markets and economies, the unspoken goal is to turn earth's limited resources into thought, whereby some intelligent process achieves the escape velocity to leave this gravity well and proliferate throughout the universe.

I know there are people who see it this way and feel like this. It presumes a couple things: - that intelligent thought (or in other belief structures, spirit, consciousness, etc) are the only thing of value worth propogating - that by escaping the gravity well, we can also escape the problems we wrought by bad design. We’re more likely to carry the problems forward. Our so-called “intelligent thought” have problems…

Isn’t is interesting that as a species we don’t have a way to understand where are we in our lifecycle? As a human I can understand life stages and where I am relative to other individuals. I can plan my life accordingly and of course there may be unexpected events but on average I know I have maybe 70-100 years to enjoy life.

As a species we have no idea if we peaked or we are in our infancy… one thing that will probably happen is that we too will cease to exist as a whole at some point. I wonder what this does to us as a group, not having that perspective.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#173
post #168
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And flying to another planet that happens to be completely inhospitable is somehow cheaper or easier? When you realize there are no hospitable planets, besides earth, within our solar system - you will realize there is no escaping the problems we have created here on earth. No, they must be solved, not avoided. There is no future where any of us alive today, or for many, many generations (dozens, maybe hundreds or th…

Too many people make it a dichotomy between staying here and colonizing. Why not both?

Colonize Mars all you want - but Mars dies when Earth dies; they are both tied to the same sun and will suffer similar fates.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key thing people don’t realize or understand is that hardly any agriculture is sustainable, and even less is restorative. Permaculture is extremely interesting because of that. The challenge is finding ways to harvest food reliably and at any meaningful scale.

> hardly any agriculture is sustainable humans have been doing it for 1000's of years. that is a much longer record of sustainable success than anything else we know of. there isn't any particular reason to think that industrial agriculture will fail any time soon. the worst case scenario is that it becomes more expensive over time. we spend we massively over produce food (30% of corn burned as gasoline off the top,…

Worth drawing a distinction between the farming of the past and the farming of the present. Until the agricultural revolution humans sat right up against the population ceiling- the only reason hunger wasn't the leading cause of death is that disease reliably killed us first. They left fields fallow, and when they grew too much (which they had to if they wanted to feed their families) they depleted the soil and starved. We couldn't do permanent damage because our population was partially governed by it, just like every other animal.

I don't actually disagree with you- infinite growth might not be possible but we haven't even started tapping the lightcone. Fertilizer works, negative effects can be mitigated, and honestly nothing is worth returning to the "sustainable" famine nightmare of the past.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#175
post #131

When I first heard of the concept of things like vertical farming, or shipping container farming, or even farm bots. I thought those were a great ideas. That tech like this will solve for food problems, such as urban blight. Back then, I was still optimistic about the role of tech, and that more tech will solve things like this. It was also before I really deep dived into permaculture design, and many of the related…

Keep digging and sooner or later you'll come around to accepting that your previous discoveries (like broad implementation of permaculture) can never be realized under capitalism; that capitalism is in fact the opposition to your vision.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#176
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I don't like how you're going after urban living. I can rewrite what you've written, but from an urbanist perspective regarding transportation sustainability: Rural living has taken people away from one another, so there is an illusion that we don't have to pay the true costs of travel. People growing up in towns expect cars and on-demand access to roads and gasoline and…

People get attached to things, including urban living. I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish with rewriting it from the perspective of travel. That is pretty much how I feel about travel and transport infrastructure too. Some cultures attach a lot of importance on travel, associating it with freedom, or mobility (both in the literal sense, and as a metaphor for class mobility). Don’t get me wrong, I love to…

Urban living is more sustainable than living in suburban sprawl. Spreading humans around and reducing our density isn't going to make it more sustainable.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#177
post #152
post #131

When I first heard of the concept of things like vertical farming, or shipping container farming, or even farm bots. I thought those were a great ideas. That tech like this will solve for food problems, such as urban blight. Back then, I was still optimistic about the role of tech, and that more tech will solve things like this. It was also before I really deep dived into permaculture design, and many of the related…

How do harvesting machines work with this mixed planting approach? Do you need to redesign existing machines completely for this novel planting scheme? Won’t it be extremely hard to harvest from one type of plant without damaging other plants that are “occupying different canopy layers”?

It takes new machines and they generally damage something, yes. Despites op's emphasis on low-tech, the people I know who do permaculture seemed like they were excited for robot arms and computer vision to be better and cheaper.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hardly any agriculture is sustainable humans have been doing it for 1000's of years. that is a much longer record of sustainable success than anything else we know of. there isn't any particular reason to think that industrial agriculture will fail any time soon. the worst case scenario is that it becomes more expensive over time. we spend we massively over produce food (30% of corn burned as gasoline off the top,…

Worth drawing a distinction between the farming of the past and the farming of the present. Until the agricultural revolution humans sat right up against the population ceiling- the only reason hunger wasn't the leading cause of death is that disease reliably killed us first. They left fields fallow, and when they grew too much (which they had to if they wanted to feed their families) they depleted the soil and starv…

Farming started in Fertile Crescent thousands of years ago. If you visit the region today it’s all but fertile. Sand, sand and more sand.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2003-jun-15-op-diamo....

> When you clear a forest in a high-rainfall tropical area, new trees grow up to a height of 15 feet within a year; in a dry area like the Fertile Crescent, regeneration is much slower. And when you add to the equation grazing by sheep and goats, new trees stand little chance. Deforestation led to soil erosion, and irrigation agriculture led to salinization, both by releasing salt buried deep in the ground and by adding salt through irrigation water. After centuries of degradation, areas of Iraq that formerly supported productive irrigation agriculture are today salt pans where nothing grows.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#179
post #131

When I first heard of the concept of things like vertical farming, or shipping container farming, or even farm bots. I thought those were a great ideas. That tech like this will solve for food problems, such as urban blight. Back then, I was still optimistic about the role of tech, and that more tech will solve things like this. It was also before I really deep dived into permaculture design, and many of the related…

I wonder about affordability, but I am very pro-farmbot. Far more than self-driving cars. If anything, farmbots could provide a lot of very helpful groundwork in a lower-stakes environment which the self-driving cars people could use. My only real concern is if farmbots could be cheap enough to absorb a large portion of the -cide market.

Most herbicides, for example, could be replaced by something which plucks. Insecticide money could, partially, go into bots that could pick-and-crush unwanted insects aboveground. We would still have grubs. Fungicide expenditure could be slashed: detect infection on a plant, spray it and its neighbors, maybe a few more downwind. Your bot, named He Who Walks Behind the Rows, trundles along slowly, observing each plant.

Per acre, it would have to travel roughly three and a third miles. At a half-mile-per-hour pace, thirteen hours a day, you could swing two acres a day per bot. Let's say your bot eats your production cost in half, about four hundred dollars per acre. If a bot lasts only a season, well, it has to cost under a grand to be worth it, and I haven't even touched power costs yet. So it will need to survive multiple growing seasons. I can see Overlord stations every few acres, maybe grabbing some solar power or charging up off a grid, storing it so that it can be dispersed to the bots at night. They could serve as data collection points, centimeter-level GPS correction servers, and so on, as well.

I could see the temptation to work irrigation into the bot somehow but water is heavy and I imagine something entirely separate to provide water.

I'm making a lot of assumptions, like "each plant ought to be looked at each day" and the standard thirty-inch rows, etc.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#180

The pessimism here is just unwarranted. Vertical farming will transform the world by freeing up hundreds of thousands of acres of land. It will move farming closer to consumption cutting the logistics costs and wastage. It's hard to overstate the how much the positive impact on the environment will be. On the top of that, it will make all regions of the world much more self-sufficient than they currently are. Sure, i…

How about retooling to specialize in crops that don't need sun, like mushrooms?

You can't just get energy from nothing, not even with mushrooms.
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