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U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

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Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#121

Post by triceratops »

efitz wrote: post #100
triceratops wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't have mattered either way because his mother was a US citizen, making him a natural-born citizen even if he were born in outer space.

Obama of course was born in Hawaii and of course he was a US citizen. That said, the law at the time was that if your father wasn’t a citizen, then your mother had to be a citizen AND had to have been living in the US for the previous 5 years. Dumb law IMO but it was the law and was raised by a lot of birthers.

It's not possible for Obama's mother to have been living outside the US 5 years before his birth. She only met Obama Sr 2 years before little Barack was born.

(Not that facts or logic matter to birthers, but anyway)

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#122

Post by comte7092 »

hindsightbias wrote: post #117
comte7092 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with university educations can very much abuse their power. Thinking otherwise is a liberal fantasy, much like the formerly popular meme that China would magically liberalize its political system because of globalization.

TIL Kissinger and Nixon were liberal fantisists.

Yes? Political liberalism goes well beyond the narrow understanding that exists within the US, wherein the label has grown to be largely incoherent/redefined to mean whatever is mainstream within the Democratic Party.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#123

Post by TheFreim »

efitz wrote: post #18
bell-cot wrote: post #9

I've never heard any justification for having "college education" as a job requirement. Or at least no justification that didn't amount to "keep out people who aren't like us", or "pretend to be competent", or "posture as exclusive".

A college degree is a signaling mechanism that you are willing to stick it out until the end in a large bureaucratic environment and not quit. An Ivy League degree is a signal that “you’re one of us”.

This is correct. It proves you're willing to jump through hoops and not think enough for yourself, since being creative often means diverging from the grading criteria.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#124

Post by tivert »

paxys wrote: post #51
jedberg wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A college degree from an accredited institution shows that you can see through a task that takes 4+ years to complete. There are many other ways to show that, and it's silly to limit anything to only people with college degrees, but that's why people do it.

All that it shows is that you had enough money to pay for 4 years of college. If that were the only criteria then holding on to a job for 4+ years should count for 1000x more than a college degree, because at least you are accountable for results.

> All that it shows is that you had enough money to pay for 4 years of college.

No, it also shows you can show up on time for those years, and regularly complete a series of reasonably complicated intellectual tasks on a deadline.

> If that were the only criteria then holding on to a job for 4+ years should count for 1000x more than a college degree, because at least you are accountable for results.

No, college is far more standardized, and the students have their performance evaluated throughout, which can then be easily provided in a digested form.

The main issue with college is that many people who could complete the requirements can't, only because they don't have the money.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#125

Post by fauxpause_ »

nawgz wrote: post #103
augment003 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all. You’re just saying Canadian police shoot less people than American police, which nobody is disputing.

> your argument has nothing to do with college degrees at all What I'm saying is pretty obvious, but I'll spell it out for you. 1. Canadian and American cultures are extremely homogenous 2. Canadian and American police have few differences, but a critical one is the Canadian-only requirement of university degrees 3. With no other clearly-defined drivers of police culture differentiation across the border, we see that…

This butchering of statistical reasoning is so poor I have to assume it is a troll

But in case it’s genuine, consider vast differences in gun ownership, homicide rate, and… honestly so many other things it’s just annoying to list them.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#126

Post by txru »

sandworm101 wrote: post #119
Arainach wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Having done a minor in criminal justice, officers, lawmakers, and others involved in the justice system could absolutely benefit from exposure to sociology and academic CJ. The American "justice" system is a travesty and continues following methods that we've known not to work for many decades. To fix the system we need the folks inside it to understand the system. Part of that is education. Part of that…

>> To fix the system we need the folks inside it to understand the system. Nope. The American justice system does not control itself. It is bound by laws and codes of practice dictated to it by outsiders, those good-idea people who's entire understanding of law comes from a highschool history or civics class they barely remember. It is as bad as it is because the general public honestly want it that way. Rough and vi…

I think a few things happened in 2020 that show that at least some of the general public are unhappy and want changes...

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#127

Post by JumpCrisscross »

sandworm101 wrote: post #119
Arainach wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Having done a minor in criminal justice, officers, lawmakers, and others involved in the justice system could absolutely benefit from exposure to sociology and academic CJ. The American "justice" system is a travesty and continues following methods that we've known not to work for many decades. To fix the system we need the folks inside it to understand the system. Part of that is education. Part of that…

>> To fix the system we need the folks inside it to understand the system. Nope. The American justice system does not control itself. It is bound by laws and codes of practice dictated to it by outsiders, those good-idea people who's entire understanding of law comes from a highschool history or civics class they barely remember. It is as bad as it is because the general public honestly want it that way. Rough and vi…

> those good-idea people who's entire understanding of law comes from a highschool history or civics class they barely remember

Who are you referring to?

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#128

Post by [deleted] »

metalspot wrote: post #75
version_five wrote: post #2

Sort of related, ontario is dropping university requirements for police: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-eliminating-edu... I wonder if it's coincidence or the start of a trend back to sanity about job qualifications. Ironically, by becoming almost ubiquitous, university education also becomes irrelevant.

if a job has specific knowledge and skills requirements then it needs to have an objective test that people pass to be able to do the job. that is the only way to eliminate the systemic discrimination that the university system and degree requirements propagate. almost all serious jobs already have objective skills tests and licensing requirements for employment: doctors, lawyers, financial services, heavy equipment…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#129

Post by amalcon »

augment003 wrote: post #55
bfeynman wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very idealistic to think that money would be reallocated to give police better training and resources, unless you mean military grade equipment for responding to domestic disputes. One can dream though...

True, but it’s only idealistic because nobody is seriously talking about it. The two options seem to either be defund or militarize. If more people talk about sensible options regularly then they won’t seem like pipe dreams. In any case the point here is that college degrees clearly don’t serve as great police training.

There are people seriously talking about it. E.g. the current President of the United States has been talking about better police training since his campaign, and has issued executive orders touching on it. It's just kind of boring, so it doesn't end up in the news and doesn't go anywhere with the legislature.

(edit: I don't want to litigate whether POTUS's preferences for better training would actually improve things, I only want to point out he's been talking about it).

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#130

Post by catiopatio »

Arainach wrote: post #112
photochemsyn wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd prefer police officers with EMT (and preferably paramedic) training to those with four-year sociology degrees. Knowledge of DNA and computer forensic methods and necessities, though, would probably improve their chances of getting promoted, as would legal training. However, those skills could easily be learned at two-year community college progams. All in all, I think this kind of focus would lead to a more profe…

I disagree. Having done a minor in criminal justice, officers, lawmakers, and others involved in the justice system could absolutely benefit from exposure to sociology and academic CJ. The American "justice" system is a travesty and continues following methods that we've known not to work for many decades. To fix the system we need the folks inside it to understand the system. Part of that is education. Part of that…

Hiring people from a sociology/social justice background would just mean the same abuses of power, but different targets.

Policing has gone in this direction in the UK, and now you have mothers being arrested in front of their children after “misgendering” someone online: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/i-stand-with-kate-scotto...

> St Albans Magistrates’ Court found her guilty, under the Communications Act (2003), of using a public communications network to “cause annoyance, inconvenience and anxiety”.

Fortunately, she eventually won on appeal and her conviction was overturned, but the process itself was the punishment.

Police need less power, not more sociology degrees.

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