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U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

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Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#81

Sort of related, ontario is dropping university requirements for police: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-eliminating-edu... I wonder if it's coincidence or the start of a trend back to sanity about job qualifications. Ironically, by becoming almost ubiquitous, university education also becomes irrelevant.

Police should definitely be more highly educated, we see the result of them not being so in the US

Police need to be more highly trained -- I wouldn't equate that 1:1 with holding a degree.

U.S. training requirements for police are state-level matters sometimes augmented by local requirements; none of the state requirements, as I recall, are comparable to the more stringent standards required in many western European nations.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#82
post #9

I've never heard any justification for having "college education" as a job requirement. Or at least no justification that didn't amount to "keep out people who aren't like us", or "pretend to be competent", or "posture as exclusive".

Many employers once used IQ tests, but the Supreme Court made this much costlier for employers under the "disparate impact" theory.[0] That is, employers had a burden of showing that their tests were sufficiently related to the posted job if the test results were any different among different ethnic groups, e.g. blacks scored lower than whites. Making a degree a literal requirement for the job is a low-cost proxy for IQ (or was in the past), and since it is earned, it can be listed as a job requirement, unlike IQ.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#83
It's time to recognize that legal or organizational requirements for certain professions and government jobs to hold a college degree is a burden not only to talented people who are otherwise qualified to do the job, but leads to numerous burdens on society. These requirements have led to for-profit diploma mills, "nonprofit" universities charging $80k per year leading to billions in student debt that may never be paid off, and people who play the system to pad their salaries for no real benefit to the organizations or the people they serve.

For instance, in my state, billions in additional salary and pensions have been paid out over the past 50+ years to corrections and police officers who get a graduate degree. It's part of the "Quinn Bill" (https://www.mass.edu/osfa/initiatives/pcipp.asp) which dates to the Johnson Administration!

In 1967, the President’s Commission on Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice (the Johnson Crime Commission) released a report recommending more education for police officers. It said in order for the quality and effectiveness of American criminal justice to improve, its practitioners needed better training.

A friend who's a cop says the graduate degree programs that have sprung up to serve the Quinn Bill market are a complete joke, but everyone with a college degree completes them to boost their salaries, which carries over to their pensions. Note that police already get rigorous training outside of these programs in areas such as accident reconstruction, de-escalation techniques, forensics, etc.

Moreover, you don't even need a degree to become a police officer or corrections officer. In New England states are dropping age requirements to 18 or 19, because there is such a big shortage of staff: https://www.wbur.org/news/2023/02/27/essex-county-sheriff-lo...

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#84
post #9

I've never heard any justification for having "college education" as a job requirement. Or at least no justification that didn't amount to "keep out people who aren't like us", or "pretend to be competent", or "posture as exclusive".

Do you want a Dr operating on you who didn't graduate from college or medical school? There is a reason why degrees are requirements.

Way to change the subject. I thought we were talking about cops here.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#85

Sort of related, ontario is dropping university requirements for police: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/ontario-eliminating-edu... I wonder if it's coincidence or the start of a trend back to sanity about job qualifications. Ironically, by becoming almost ubiquitous, university education also becomes irrelevant.

Police should definitely be more highly educated, we see the result of them not being so in the US

People with university educations can very much abuse their power. Thinking otherwise is a liberal fantasy, much like the formerly popular meme that China would magically liberalize its political system because of globalization.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#86
There's a story in Obama's bio (I think) where he went down to the local Chicago Democratic Party office to volunteer. Someone could find the reference if I'm not GPT-3'ing this.

The guy behind the desk said, "Who sent you?" (meaning, "what Party official?")

Obama said, "Nobody."

So the guy sent him away, with "We don't want nobody nobody sent!"

They didn't ask where he went to school, though.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#87
post #9

I've never heard any justification for having "college education" as a job requirement. Or at least no justification that didn't amount to "keep out people who aren't like us", or "pretend to be competent", or "posture as exclusive".

Many employers once used IQ tests, but the Supreme Court made this much costlier for employers under the "disparate impact" theory.[0] That is, employers had a burden of showing that their tests were sufficiently related to the posted job if the test results were any different among different ethnic groups, e.g. blacks scored lower than whites. Making a degree a literal requirement for the job is a low-cost proxy for…

> employers had a burden of showing that their tests were sufficiently related to the posted job

so why not just create a test that actually tests for the skills needed for the job? that would be the obvious way to optimize profit from a business perspective.

the fact that employers don't do that is a pretty clear sign that the purpose of degree requirements is explicitly discriminatory, the same as "IQ" tests (which are completely fraudulent).

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#88
post #9

I've never heard any justification for having "college education" as a job requirement. Or at least no justification that didn't amount to "keep out people who aren't like us", or "pretend to be competent", or "posture as exclusive".

Its all here: https://spectator.org/how-the-supreme-court-created-the-stud... > The solution for businesses post-Griggs was obvious: outsource screening to colleges, which are allowed to weed out poor candidates based on test scores.

> The 1971 Supreme Court decision remains largely unknown, but no ruling of the past forty-five years (except for Roe v. Wade) has done more harm to the American way of life.

Rolls eyes so hard they nearly come out of skull

Yeah, it probably had some effect, but I'd say there are a lot of reasons, probably starting with the GI Bill. Why settle for a high school grad when there's a glut of veteran-college-grads suddenly on the market, all looking for jobs? Plus it gives you an excuse for excluding most women, who are suddenly in the job market in much greater numbers, from higher-paying jobs... oh, and would you look at that, black veterans are having trouble actually getting the benefits they're owed, so aren't going to college at as high a rate as white veterans! How convenient that is.

Clearly, there are a bunch of reasons this would have been appealing to employers well before 1971, and once the ball's rolling, it's easy to see how this new situation becomes self-perpetuating (good jobs now require degrees, since there are plenty of degree-holders around -> kids aspire to college at much higher rates -> repeat)

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its all here: https://spectator.org/how-the-supreme-court-created-the-stud... > The solution for businesses post-Griggs was obvious: outsource screening to colleges, which are allowed to weed out poor candidates based on test scores.

> The 1971 Supreme Court decision remains largely unknown, but no ruling of the past forty-five years (except for Roe v. Wade) has done more harm to the American way of life. Rolls eyes so hard they nearly come out of skull Yeah, it probably had some effect, but I'd say there are a lot of reasons, probably starting with the GI Bill. Why settle for a high school grad when there's a glut of veteran-college-grads sudden…

> Why settle for a high school grad when there's a glut of veteran-college-grads suddenly on the market

You didn't need to "settle" for anything prior to this decision. You could simply screen for candidates based on innate cognitive ability. Going to college or not does not change that attribute.

Re: U.S. Rep. Angie Craig drops college requirement for staffers

#90
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police should definitely be more highly educated, we see the result of them not being so in the US

I strongly suspect the issues you're referring to are much more an issue with attitude and mindset, rather than directly with education. I think there are probably much more efficient ways to adjust attitude and mindset than broad-based college education. I'm glad I got a broad-based education. It was definitely the right thing for me, but I think it's a hammer being applied to too many problems that aren't roughly n…

I think a college education is a great screening tool for determining levels of conscientiousness, ability to communicate, and ability to follow directions. All great things. My worst interactions with police officers all involved individuals that were low on these skills.
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