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Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

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Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#81

Let me know when truly calorie-dense foods like potatoes, corn, and wheat are finally profitable to grow indoors. All I see thus far is lots of LED-fed salad.

It would be interesting to see the EROI on these vertical farms. My guess is that dozens of calories (mostly originating from fossil fuels) go into every food calorie produced. If you want to convert petroleum to food, there are far more efficient ways to do it.

A ratio of fuel calories to food calories isn't that useful a metric unless you have similar numbers for all the conventional methods of producing food at scale.

It's not like 1 is a goal: we can't eat fossil fuels (or solar energy), and we know that eating either plants or animals is never going to yield all the energy they absorbed during their lives.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#82
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries have been forced into mono culture plantation crops by IMF and World Bank, due BS globalisation comparative advantage policies. There is plenty of arable land it's just devouted to non staple production. And so they're stuck buying food with dollars they have no control over.

It's not that they're "forced" too, it's that farmers in those countries want to make money, to invest in the future. And the way to make money is to grow cash crops and sell them on the world market, not grow barely-profitable staples. Their governments can and do provide subsidies to make growing staples profitable, but that's on the individual countries.

What is the content of the claim that farmers want to make money "to invest in the future"?

Surely in many cases neither farmers producing cash crops nor the countries they are based in are able to 'invest in the future', but rather are trapped by past debts and limited options.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#83
post #20

Minor nitpick; the title might be better as Upward Farms closes ten years after starting their vertical farm business. As it stands the title reads a little as though Upward Farms was the OG progenitor of vertical farms, whereas, from the article: > The company started out in 2013 as Edenworks before transitioning to Seed & Roe and then Upward Farms. As prior art in the vertical farm game though, consider verticalfar…

of all places, how does vertical farming make sense in Australia? Surely there's an enormous amount of horizontal space that you could use?

The whole "elevator pitch" idea is that you could put these vertical farms inside the major cities.

But that's not really needed unless the city is on the moon, and even then, you have lots of space if you just build a bit of transportation.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That ship has sailed? The cost of food is a great estimate of it's cost in electricity etc. Techno-farming cost more, in fuel and resources. And those gigantic ships? The absolute cheapest (in fuel) way to move goods, responsible for essentially every advance in living in the last century. It's easy to mark 'profit' as 'evil' but senseless to do so, as it correlates so closely with fuel etc. You want to find an egreg…

> The absolute cheapest (in fuel) way to move goods, responsible for essentially every advance in living in the last century. This is a very distorted view of technological and human progress. A huge factor in improvements in global standards of human living over the last century has been improvements in health care: hygiene, vaccination, antibiotics, basic medication, birth control and health education. Far from bei…

The distribution of goods is vital to every part of that? Making it cheap enough to reach every citizen of Earth is what shipping containers have made possible.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#86
post #15

Indoor and especially vertical farming might be worthwhile in some edge cases but all the fancy Startup babble does conveniently ignore that you lose access to thousands of dollars worth of free services provided by nature: irrigation, fertility, pest control, sun light for crying out loud. The idea that more than a fraction of food production can profitably move indoors is laughable and VCs would be much better off…

By this reasoning, why would we need to do anything to grow food? Why not relax and enjoy nature's bounty? If your answer is anything but "we should indeed" then you're saying that a spectrum of technological aids are a good idea. This is one of them. E.g. growing water-intensive herbs in the Middle East based on nature vs inside a water-recirculating vertical farm. If it's not obvious, the answer isn't actually natu…

>> all the fancy Startup babble does conveniently ignore that you lose access to thousands of dollars worth of free services provided by nature: irrigation, fertility, pest control, sun light for crying out loud.

> By this reasoning, why would we need to do anything to grow food? Why not relax and enjoy nature's bounty?

The GP got a couple things wrong (e.g. nature doesn't provide free pest control), but one thing very, very right: plants need lots and lots of sunlight that we can get for free with horizontal farming. Vertical farming throws all that away, and therefore is mostly nonsense. IIRC, all it can manage is low-calories crops like lettuce. You're not getting industrial-scale, vertically-farmed potatoes without a bunch of generators powering tons of floodlights.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#87
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By this reasoning, why would we need to do anything to grow food? Why not relax and enjoy nature's bounty? If your answer is anything but "we should indeed" then you're saying that a spectrum of technological aids are a good idea. This is one of them. E.g. growing water-intensive herbs in the Middle East based on nature vs inside a water-recirculating vertical farm. If it's not obvious, the answer isn't actually natu…

>> all the fancy Startup babble does conveniently ignore that you lose access to thousands of dollars worth of free services provided by nature: irrigation, fertility, pest control, sun light for crying out loud. > By this reasoning, why would we need to do anything to grow food? Why not relax and enjoy nature's bounty? The GP got a couple things wrong (e.g. nature doesn't provide free pest control), but one thing ve…

All over Scotland - which is kind of centred around 55°N, way further north than these guys with their vertical farms - potatoes grow like crazy. Some types do well in Ayrshire, some do well up here in Angus (yes, like Aberdeen-Angus cattle). Different types of soil work well for different plants.

You'd need literally megawatts of power to provide the same amount of light. Where are you going to get that from? Solar panels...?

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#88
I follow this segment closely because, among other things, we develop technology and software for the industry and have multiple installations. As a result of this, I have spent time working at these farms, some spanning over 20,000 square meters, and have a reasonable understanding of the challenges involved.

My impression has always been that too many of these entities end-up building what I call "monuments to computer science and technology", rather than farms. The last paragraph in the article is, to me, a typical sign of this issue:

“What Upward Farms calls Ecological Intelligence is a proprietary microbiome technology that introduces a biologically-based reinforcement learning flywheel. By curating a diverse microbiome with genetic capacity for key functions, Upward Farms achieves an autonomous, self-optimising, and highly productive biological manufacturing platform.”

Right.

Maybe this is just marketing/fund-raising language. I get it. There's stupid money out there that will throw dollars at anything that sounds like it is aligned with trends. Maybe they should have added "GPT" to that paragraph.

I know indoor farms that are doing well. It's challenging, yes, most businesses are. Upward Farms decided to raise fish and plants. Yeah, good luck. That's likely where some of the "infinite challenges" they refer to came from.

Yes, technology is an absolute requirement for indoor farming. The key is to not make it about technology for technology's sake. Don't introduce a backhoe for a job that can be done with a shovel.

The farm business equation isn't, at a basic level, terribly complex. You are no building a data center. If you do, you will eventually be plowed-over when you fail.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#89

The pessimism here is just unwarranted. Vertical farming will transform the world by freeing up hundreds of thousands of acres of land. It will move farming closer to consumption cutting the logistics costs and wastage. It's hard to overstate the how much the positive impact on the environment will be. On the top of that, it will make all regions of the world much more self-sufficient than they currently are. Sure, i…

It will be more efficient for plants to capture free energy from the sun directly than to convert it into electricity, transmit that over a long distance, possibly store it for a while, and then convert it back to light before plants capture it, for a very long time. The energy losses by solar panels and led lights are very significant.

Re: Upward Farms throws in towel ten years after founding vertical-farming business

#90
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By this reasoning, why would we need to do anything to grow food? Why not relax and enjoy nature's bounty? If your answer is anything but "we should indeed" then you're saying that a spectrum of technological aids are a good idea. This is one of them. E.g. growing water-intensive herbs in the Middle East based on nature vs inside a water-recirculating vertical farm. If it's not obvious, the answer isn't actually natu…

>> all the fancy Startup babble does conveniently ignore that you lose access to thousands of dollars worth of free services provided by nature: irrigation, fertility, pest control, sun light for crying out loud. > By this reasoning, why would we need to do anything to grow food? Why not relax and enjoy nature's bounty? The GP got a couple things wrong (e.g. nature doesn't provide free pest control), but one thing ve…

It's mostly non-sense in North America. In places like Japan, Korea, it makes a ton of sense. High population density, with relatively little arable land.
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