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Europe’s Longest Bicycling Tunnel Opens in Norway

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Re: Europe’s Longest Bicycling Tunnel Opens in Norway

#131

Post by ghaff »

rsynnott wrote: post #113
ghaff wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People also just adjust. If you don't drive--or at least can't rent a car easily/don't want to--you just tend not to do activities or go places requiring that you do so. I couldn't get by day-to-day without a car but even if I lived in the city, I'd regularly want to drive one to visit people, do weekend activities, etc.

Eh, I find I can get wherever I need on public transport, in general. Now, that said, I'm not regularly going to very rural areas, or anything. I mean, it definitely wouldn't work for everyone, but for me, I can walk or get public transport anywhere I need to go (and this is in Dublin, a city that is... not known for the excellence of its public transport; they'll finish the underground train one day...) Now I'm in m…

If I lived in Boston, there's basically no way I'm getting to the mountains, north shore, Cape Cod, western suburbs/exurbs where a lot of people I know live, etc. without a car that I either own, rent, or someone else does. The city itself has a pretty good public transit system and there's even a pretty good commuter rail--but that's designed for coming into the city from suburban train stations with parking lots. So I'd be pretty much limited to the metro itself without a car in some form.

Which is fine for some people. They'll just naturally tend to avoid activities that are a pain to do in one way or another.

Re: Europe’s Longest Bicycling Tunnel Opens in Norway

#132

Post by ericmay »

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #46
k4rli wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It sounds very nice and morally fulfilling to denigrate any numerical calculus of welfare; but in the end you still have to deal with monetary budgets that represent limited societal supply of labor and resources. You may try to take a moral high ground and say that people are more important than $X million, but those money also represent potential housing, cancer treatment research, green energy investment, etc that…

Also in an American context “saving money” or other “efficiency gains” anrguments appeal to a broad group of people and can build consensus. You don’t need just one message, you can have different messages for different audiences to sell them on the idea.

Also for the GP you shouldn’t call people out for having an email domain listed if you are too fearful to have yours listed. Be nice.

Re: Europe’s Longest Bicycling Tunnel Opens in Norway

#133

Post by Tade0 »

rsynnott wrote: post #113
ghaff wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People also just adjust. If you don't drive--or at least can't rent a car easily/don't want to--you just tend not to do activities or go places requiring that you do so. I couldn't get by day-to-day without a car but even if I lived in the city, I'd regularly want to drive one to visit people, do weekend activities, etc.

Eh, I find I can get wherever I need on public transport, in general. Now, that said, I'm not regularly going to very rural areas, or anything. I mean, it definitely wouldn't work for everyone, but for me, I can walk or get public transport anywhere I need to go (and this is in Dublin, a city that is... not known for the excellence of its public transport; they'll finish the underground train one day...) Now I'm in m…

That's interesting to me because my family's weekend trips were almost always to such places.

There's more to do than in the city and the restaurants are generally better - you just need to drive there.

Re: Europe’s Longest Bicycling Tunnel Opens in Norway

#134

Post by [deleted] »

medstrom wrote: post #65
gns24 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the potential loading is annoying. I remember wondering why predestrian/cycle bridges were always so annoyingly narrow despite having low loads. The issue is of course that they have to be strong enough to support being crammed with hundreds of people when everyone is there to watch the local fireworks/rowing race/anything else that's happening, even if that happens almost never.

If you built a rope-bridge, I'm sure people would beware of cramming it. Maybe it's possible to build designs that discourage. Where are you from? I haven't seen an "annoyingly narrow" ped/cycle bridge in Sweden or Belgium.

[deleted]

Re: Europe’s Longest Bicycling Tunnel Opens in Norway

#135

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

trabant00 wrote: post #22

Why can't we support and encourage cycling without vilifying cars in these threads? I've seen plenty of places that do both very well, like Spain. Everybody has a car and bicycle (at least one) and uses whatever fits the purpose at the time. I get it, when there's not cycling infrastructure everybody is forced to take the car even if it doesn't make any sense, like for short trips, good weather, single passenger, no…

I think it's mainly a U.S. thing as their cities are designed around personal car usage. That leads to the separation of living spaces and facilities (i.e. the anti-15 minute city) as more roads need to be built to cater for all the traffic which then leads to the distances increasing until a car is needed for almost every journey. Once you have cars dominating as the form of transport, it becomes dangerous to use other vehicles as most drivers will inevitably just be looking out for other cars and not two-wheelers.

Re: Europe’s Longest Bicycling Tunnel Opens in Norway

#136

Post by Reason077 »

medstrom wrote: post #65
gns24 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the potential loading is annoying. I remember wondering why predestrian/cycle bridges were always so annoyingly narrow despite having low loads. The issue is of course that they have to be strong enough to support being crammed with hundreds of people when everyone is there to watch the local fireworks/rowing race/anything else that's happening, even if that happens almost never.

If you built a rope-bridge, I'm sure people would beware of cramming it. Maybe it's possible to build designs that discourage. Where are you from? I haven't seen an "annoyingly narrow" ped/cycle bridge in Sweden or Belgium.

> “Where are you from? I haven't seen an "annoyingly narrow" ped/cycle bridge in Sweden or Belgium.”

I’d say most of London’s busy pedestrian/cycle bridges and tunnels are annoyingly narrow.

Even taking cyclists out of the equation, they can get congested at times, particularly with tourists stopping to take photos from the middle etc.

So a cyclist can either be polite and move at pedestrian speed, which is annoying for the cyclist. Or weave and dodge pedestrians at speed (typically Deliveroo/UberEats riders on e-bikes) which is annoying and dangerous for pedestrians…

Re: Europe’s Longest Bicycling Tunnel Opens in Norway

#137

Post by rsynnott »

Tade0 wrote: post #133
rsynnott wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I find I can get wherever I need on public transport, in general. Now, that said, I'm not regularly going to very rural areas, or anything. I mean, it definitely wouldn't work for everyone, but for me, I can walk or get public transport anywhere I need to go (and this is in Dublin, a city that is... not known for the excellence of its public transport; they'll finish the underground train one day...) Now I'm in m…

That's interesting to me because my family's weekend trips were almost always to such places. There's more to do than in the city and the restaurants are generally better - you just need to drive there.

Ah. So I think basically anywhere near here that has restaurants that anyone would be bothered about making a trip for would also be within walking distance of a bus route. The places that you really _can't_ get to on public transport are very rural.

Re: Europe’s Longest Bicycling Tunnel Opens in Norway

#138

Post by kristofferR »

Tade0 wrote: post #116
eythian wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People need to realize that even the Dutch generally have cars and drive. It depends a lot where you are. Live in a major city and very few people have cars, they're expensive and spend a lot of time just sitting around taking up space and money. Go to a less dense area and they're a lot more common. Also, pay-by-the-minute or whatever car rentals aren't uncommon for when people need them but don't want to actually…

> It depends a lot where you are. Of course it does because it's like that everywhere in Europe. I wouldn't expect many e.g. Parisians to own cars. My point was that there's a whole spectrum of lifestyles with rational choices behind them and you can't just brush over that with a simplistic solutions like "ban cars".

That's one of the biggest strawmens I've ever seen. Nobody is saying that they want to ban cars outright, they want to ban cars in city centers, in order to make them walkable.

Re: Europe’s Longest Bicycling Tunnel Opens in Norway

#139

Post by rsynnott »

ghaff wrote: post #131
rsynnott wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I find I can get wherever I need on public transport, in general. Now, that said, I'm not regularly going to very rural areas, or anything. I mean, it definitely wouldn't work for everyone, but for me, I can walk or get public transport anywhere I need to go (and this is in Dublin, a city that is... not known for the excellence of its public transport; they'll finish the underground train one day...) Now I'm in m…

If I lived in Boston, there's basically no way I'm getting to the mountains, north shore, Cape Cod, western suburbs/exurbs where a lot of people I know live, etc. without a car that I either own, rent, or someone else does. The city itself has a pretty good public transit system and there's even a pretty good commuter rail--but that's designed for coming into the city from suburban train stations with parking lots. S…

Yeah, my impression visiting the US has been that once you leave a big city, things become difficult to navigate alarmingly quickly. It's a bit different here; the suburbs and other cities and towns are usually fairly accessible via public transport.

Re: Europe’s Longest Bicycling Tunnel Opens in Norway

#140

Post by mngnt »

rob74 wrote: post #88
mngnt wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenStreetMap's got you covered: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/677727136

Sure, I was expecting nothing less from OSM's great community - now we just need some legal way to put aerial imagery on OSM :(

We're way off topic now, but well. OSM is insistently not focused on a map, but on the data. On this data a lot of other mapping projects can (and are being) built. In central Europe, we have freemap.sk, which combines OSM data, hi-quality aerial imagery - for Slovakia only, these were shot by the government and are licensed in a way that they can be combined with OSM data - resulting in possibilities such as displaying bike paths over super detailed aerial maps. Also check out mapy.cz, they are based on OSM (outside of Czechia) and in some parts of the world can be switched to satellite/aerial imagery with roads overlayed over it.
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