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The Role of Diet on the Gut Microbiome, Mood and Happiness

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Re: The Role of Diet on the Gut Microbiome, Mood and Happiness

#201

Post by hombre_fatal »

ravenstine wrote: post #176
hombre_fatal wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a whole mountain of evidence that saturated fat increases LDL cholesterol and better markers like Apo B. Placebo controlled, double-blind interventions. You can even run the experiment on yourself with monthly blood panels. Are you contesting that? That's pretty settled science. Low-carb influencers don't even deny that, so they instead try to hand-wave that high LDL/ApoB aren't a problem. Usually with some…

> What research do you think is so convincing that it supersedes this balance of evidence? You seriously need to ask yourself that question before asking it of others.

If you're asking me what the scientific consensus is or what the balance of evidence shows, start with this article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat#Association_with...

Re: The Role of Diet on the Gut Microbiome, Mood and Happiness

#202

Post by [deleted] »

el_don_almighty wrote: post #93
hombre_fatal wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a whole mountain of evidence that saturated fat increases LDL cholesterol and better markers like Apo B. Placebo controlled, double-blind interventions. You can even run the experiment on yourself with monthly blood panels. Are you contesting that? That's pretty settled science. Low-carb influencers don't even deny that, so they instead try to hand-wave that high LDL/ApoB aren't a problem. Usually with some…

I was going to ask what you think "LDL" cholesterol means with regard to its actual fractional measurement instead of calculated volumetric level, but then I decided you seemed content with your worldview and it wasn't really disturbing me personally. As I get older, I find more enjoyment using my magnifying glass for discovery than burning

[deleted]

Re: The Role of Diet on the Gut Microbiome, Mood and Happiness

#203

Post by hombre_fatal »

ravenstine wrote: post #175
hombre_fatal wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimize saturated fat (by replacing it with unsaturated fat). Get enough protein. Eat healthy carbs*. * On HN and other social media, "carbs" is a euphemism for sugar and cake rather than beans and vegetables, so people will talk about how carbs made them fat when you know they're not talking about slamming back-to-back cans of garbanzos. And don't take any nutrition advice seriously that doesn't break fat apart int…

> Minimize saturated fat (by replacing it with unsaturated fat). No. > * On HN and other social media, "carbs" is a euphemism for sugar and cake rather than beans and vegetables, so people will talk about how carbs made them fat when you know they're not talking about slamming back-to-back cans of garbanzos. Maybe that's because nobody wants to slam down cans of garbanzo beans. Garbanzo beans suck unless they're made…

>> Minimize saturated fat (by replacing it with unsaturated fat).

> No.

Let's make this simple: show me evidence that replacing unsaturated fat with saturated fat improves human health outcomes. Obviously we're not going to have this discussion in a dead HN thread, but you have to do better than that when challenging the scientific consensus.

It's trivial to find sources for the opposite. Just google "saturated vs unsaturated fat". Maybe consult the wiki entry for Saturated Fat.

You surely must at least be able to acknowledge that you're posting from a fringe position?

Re: The Role of Diet on the Gut Microbiome, Mood and Happiness

#204

Post by [deleted] »

hereme888 wrote: post #174
Snoo7654 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might have them confused yourself. First result from google: "Saturated fats (including a type called trans fat) tend to stay solid and can cause fatty deposits in blood vessels, leading to atherosclerosis ("hardening of the arteries"). By contrast, unsaturated fats stay liquid at room temperature and are less likely to clog your arteries."

Lol. That's like the arguments used back in the 80's or 90's against saturated fat, where the biased literature funded by the sugar industry produced commercials of people running cold water over lard to show that it remained solid hence clogged arteries. Saturated fat is only solid at room temperature, not biological temperature. Put a tablespoon of coconut oil or butter in your mouth and see how it melts. More impo…

[deleted]

Re: The Role of Diet on the Gut Microbiome, Mood and Happiness

#205

Post by hombre_fatal »

snapcaster wrote: post #127
hombre_fatal wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimize saturated fat (by replacing it with unsaturated fat). Get enough protein. Eat healthy carbs*. * On HN and other social media, "carbs" is a euphemism for sugar and cake rather than beans and vegetables, so people will talk about how carbs made them fat when you know they're not talking about slamming back-to-back cans of garbanzos. And don't take any nutrition advice seriously that doesn't break fat apart int…

Did you confuse saturated and unsaturated fat? Saturated fat isn't bad for you and unsaturated fats have some serious issues in how your body uses them. This comment feels like it was posted by someone in 1997

I sound like I'm from 1997 because we've known this for decades.

Show me evidence that replacing unsaturated fat with saturated fat improves human health outcomes. If you can't, then I have to ask you how your epistemology works if you don't need a mountain of evidence to surmount the scientific consensus.

You'll find that this "debate" cashes out into two sides: one side points to the balance of scientific literature on human health outcomes, and the other side hand-waves over mechanistic speculation.

For example, the latter side likes to blame seed oils when they actually improve human health outcomes: https://www.the-nutrivore.com/post/a-comprehensive-rebuttal-...

Re: The Role of Diet on the Gut Microbiome, Mood and Happiness

#206

Post by [deleted] »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #156
hombre_fatal wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a whole mountain of evidence that saturated fat increases LDL cholesterol and better markers like Apo B. Placebo controlled, double-blind interventions. You can even run the experiment on yourself with monthly blood panels. Are you contesting that? That's pretty settled science. Low-carb influencers don't even deny that, so they instead try to hand-wave that high LDL/ApoB aren't a problem. Usually with some…

You have tapped into a logical fallacy. A is associated with B. B is associated with C. This in no way indicates that A causes C. It just doesn’t. You have to show that A and C are associated, then you have to determine causation. You can’t skip steps. I see this all the time in nutrition “science”, and it is just bad science.

[deleted]

Re: The Role of Diet on the Gut Microbiome, Mood and Happiness

#207

Post by hombre_fatal »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #156
hombre_fatal wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a whole mountain of evidence that saturated fat increases LDL cholesterol and better markers like Apo B. Placebo controlled, double-blind interventions. You can even run the experiment on yourself with monthly blood panels. Are you contesting that? That's pretty settled science. Low-carb influencers don't even deny that, so they instead try to hand-wave that high LDL/ApoB aren't a problem. Usually with some…

You have tapped into a logical fallacy. A is associated with B. B is associated with C. This in no way indicates that A causes C. It just doesn’t. You have to show that A and C are associated, then you have to determine causation. You can’t skip steps. I see this all the time in nutrition “science”, and it is just bad science.

Do you think there is no research into saturated fat and heart disease (A->C)? I beg you to google it instead of washing your hands of it because one guy on HN doesn't have the time to walk you through the literature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat#Association_with...

Re: The Role of Diet on the Gut Microbiome, Mood and Happiness

#208

Post by hombre_fatal »

uberduper wrote: post #141
hombre_fatal wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a whole mountain of evidence that saturated fat increases LDL cholesterol and better markers like Apo B. Placebo controlled, double-blind interventions. You can even run the experiment on yourself with monthly blood panels. Are you contesting that? That's pretty settled science. Low-carb influencers don't even deny that, so they instead try to hand-wave that high LDL/ApoB aren't a problem. Usually with some…

My understanding of the low carb argument here is that LDL isn't inherently bad, but oxidized LDL is and that LDL requires a high blood sugar environment for oxidation. I don't have any reason to know if that's right or wrong. I hope it's right, but I also have made efforts to avoid processed meats high in saturated fats (like salami, cold cuts) just in case.

Oxidation is what makes LDL recognizable to scavenger receptors. It's immediately eliminated from the blood.

We can actually wash our hands of LDL discussion because we have a better marker for atherosclerosis: Apolipoprotein B.

Even though LDL is a proxy for Apo B (you basically can't have high LDL and low Apo B nor vice versa), it's better to focus on Apo B which is carried by lipoproteins like LDL and is more causally linked in CVD.

Re: The Role of Diet on the Gut Microbiome, Mood and Happiness

#209

Post by hombre_fatal »

el_don_almighty wrote: post #93
hombre_fatal wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a whole mountain of evidence that saturated fat increases LDL cholesterol and better markers like Apo B. Placebo controlled, double-blind interventions. You can even run the experiment on yourself with monthly blood panels. Are you contesting that? That's pretty settled science. Low-carb influencers don't even deny that, so they instead try to hand-wave that high LDL/ApoB aren't a problem. Usually with some…

I was going to ask what you think "LDL" cholesterol means with regard to its actual fractional measurement instead of calculated volumetric level, but then I decided you seemed content with your worldview and it wasn't really disturbing me personally. As I get older, I find more enjoyment using my magnifying glass for discovery than burning

Well, I'll do you one better: I'll dismiss the whole conversation about LDL concentration and focus only on the better marker most causally linked to CVD that's carried by LDL and other lipoproteins. (LDL concentration is merely a proxy)

So, don't put that magnifying glass away too fast: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apolipoprotein_B#Role_in_lipop...

Re: The Role of Diet on the Gut Microbiome, Mood and Happiness

#210

Post by hombre_fatal »

TylerLives wrote: post #89
hombre_fatal wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A different take in the same way an astrologist's blog gives us a different take on the planet Saturn. If anything Ray Peat, a quack, says is true, then why do things like PUFAs improve human health outcomes in the literature? He says PUFAs cause atherosclerosis and SFA protects against it, so why does human outcome data show the opposite? And how many animal studies is he going to bring up? Ray Peat is a good exampl…

Great questions. I'm busy right now, but I promise to go through the article in the next few days and respond. I'm open to having my mind changed, though I must admit I started feeling better when I started following Ray Peat's advice. I wonder if it could be that different people respond differently to different diets. Have you tried sharing your article on raypeatforum? You say that he's a "quack", but I've never s…

Feel free to email me (address in profile).

Nutritional arguments usually turn into epistemological inquisition: how do we know anything about anything, and what do we purport to be our standard of evidence? Do our beliefs actually entail from evidence that reaches that standard? And if evidence isn't what matters, what does matter and why?

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