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On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

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Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#241

Post by wink »

Barrin92 wrote: post #14
G3rn0ti wrote: post #9

As a native Urberliner I am both flattered and confused by the fact so many young Americans choose to live in my home town. I always wondered what makes it so attractive to you. I mean, winters are miserable, the city is ugly compared to many others in Germany, the people are rather not friendly to each other, the German language is difficult to learn, our history is troublesome, German immigration laws still difficu…

it's the capital, large, already has a big international presence which tends to in turn attract more migrants and it has a great nightlife. The clubbing, music and arts scene in Berlin is vastly better than any other city in Germany in my experience. After that maybe Munich and Cologne? But given the size of our country there's surprisingly not that many cities that are fun.

Depends on what you're looking for specifically but I'd rate Hamburg higher than both (I'm from Munich).

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#242

Post by andrepd »

systemtest wrote: post #203
jillesvangurp wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that is specific to Berlin is that increasingly bars and cafes are staffed by foreigners. This is a quirk of the German employment system, a scarcity of staff, and the wide availability of expats in need of gigs. Instead of hiring permanent staff and paying them a salary, it's less risky to have temporary workers. However, you can't do that endlessly with the same people in the German system. You would have…

If you stay and open a restaurant in Berlin, presumably for the long term, wouldn't that make you an immigrant? There is a Syrian bakery in my street and people don't call him an expat.

Expats are rich, immigrants are poor.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#243

Post by wink »

avh02 wrote: post #148
b800h wrote: post #13

We have a number of Indian-language radio stations in the UK, which are good to listen to because the music is often great. Part of the fun is spotting the odd anglicism creep in: "that's not cricket!"

i remember something similar in Dubai, while riding in a taxi hearing the driver listening to the commentary on a cricket game: very fast/excitedly: "OUT OF THIS FIELD!!" I think code switching is often a really cool/cute thing but also cringey sometimes.

Been a while since I watched it but there was an interesting difference between tennis broadcasts on German TV and Austrian TV. The Germans were using German game-specific terms - e.g. "Aus" for out of field and the Austrians were using English terms.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#244

Post by wrp »

tarkin2 wrote: post #78
vanderZwan wrote: post #69

> The other day my friend S., an American Berliner, said that he had noticed his English-language social circle starting to use the word « spontaneously » wrong. When Germans say they’ll organise a social event spontan, they mean they’ll work out the details at short notice. To socialise spontaneously, in English, means something rather different. But S. and I and our Neukölln friends have started using it in the sen…

The Germans even plan being spontaneous ;)

About 30 years ago, I met a vivacious German-Brazilian woman at a party who complained at length about how miserable it was visiting her relatives in Germany. This precise issue was her main complaint.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#245

Post by derriz »

secondcoming wrote: post #227
derriz wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is perhaps nitpicking but I wish non-native English speakers would not use the term “Anglo-Saxon” to describe anglophone or (better) English speaking countries. The term refers to the original north Germanic invaders of England and so has tribal (racial) connotations and is typically used in English to distinguish people on that basis. Many/most Americans (e.g. black or Native American) so not consider themselve…

> I wish non-native English speakers would not use the term “Anglo-Saxon” I quite like it and find it endearing. I'm definitely not of actual Anglo-Saxon stock but if non-English use that term then they're free to do so. Everyone knows what they mean. There are zero racial overtones associated with it.

Good for you. I mean that without sarcasm. I most certainly am not and don’t consider myself Anglo-Saxon in any way although English is my mother tongue. I would consider referring to New Zealand (for example - not my home country) as “Anglo-Saxon” quite insulting to Māori.

But I disagree with your last claim - there most certainly are racial overtones associated with it. Nobody would ever refer to Barack Obama, MLK, Kāterina Mataira, Rishi Sunak as Anglo-Saxon simply because having white skin and being off English stock is understood as being implied.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#246

Post by nirimda »

nologic01 wrote: post #205
nirimda wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bigger problem is that they've used "anglosaxon" to use what we would probably refer to as neoliberalism, acting as if a controversial policy setting is somehow cultural or racial. You can be a good anglosaxon who opposes neoliberalism. You can be a good English speaker and oppose neoliberalism - whether from the right or the left.

neoliberalism is a second-half of the 20th century phenomenon. The mass production and commercialization of culture significantly precedes that, it is more an advanced industrialization pattern (late 19th / early 20th), with the invention of photography, vinyl disks, movies etc.

You look at the 19th century and instead of calling it neoliberalism, it was just called liberalism. It wasn't called neo- because they weren't trying to revive a discredited ideology, that's all. But it was still a contested position.

Now you attribute the mass production and commercialisation of culture to a technical development: this is not completely correct (trinkets are as old as trade, but might not have always been so affordable), but it's much closer to the truth than some kind of false racial essentialism. There's nothing anglosaxon about it and there's nothing English-speaking about it.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#247

Post by MayeulC »

derriz wrote: post #127
vanderZwan wrote: post #69

> The other day my friend S., an American Berliner, said that he had noticed his English-language social circle starting to use the word « spontaneously » wrong. When Germans say they’ll organise a social event spontan, they mean they’ll work out the details at short notice. To socialise spontaneously, in English, means something rather different. But S. and I and our Neukölln friends have started using it in the sen…

To my ear, to do something “spontaneously” means to do something without having planned it. So to make plans with someone to do something “spontaneously” sounds oxymoronish.

IDK, it sounds OK to me: you make plans for meeting, you'll decide what to do on the spot, "improvising".

Meeting is definitly not done spontaneously. Neither is choosing the activity. The choice, however, may be spontaneous.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#248

Post by worklaptopacct »

philippgerard wrote: post #70
worklaptopacct wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a new Berliner who immigrated here I can answer some of those: - Berlin has a reputation for its artsy party scene and lax enforcement of drug laws. People come here in their 20s to let themselves loose. - German universities are good quality and free for all (excluding the Semesterpauschale, but for my American or British friends this 300€ is basically nothing in comparison - especially when you count in the publ…

You can get a PR faster (3y) if you’re here on a blue card (which is likely true for all non-EU tech workers). Universities are not all free for non-EU citizens and some programs (generally English-speaking) Masters are (properly, not the 400€) paid for citizens and non-citizens alike.

Possibly, I'm a EU citizen myself. To be fair, in my home country courses taught in English had actual tuition even if it was a public university as well. Quite a few people who did not do well on their high school graduation exams would opt for those courses just for the prestige of studying at a public uni.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#249

Post by G3rn0ti »

mgraupner wrote: post #197
G3rn0ti wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are overthinking this. Words usually have multiple meanings, common ones and less common ones. "False friend" words usually swapped their common and rare semantics when entering a different language. In this case, the common meaning for "spontaneously" is "without direction" but not "on short notice". But it's the other way around in German. There actually is the German term "spontane Ordnung" ("order from chaos"…

May I ask if you're a native German or English speaker? There is an example in another thread here which has the following example: We spontaneously decided to get married. I would translate that into: Wir haben uns spontan (dazu) entschieden zu heiraten. What is the difference in these two? Same words, same meaning to me as a native German speaker. As I see it, spontaneously can have a subtle other meaning than spon…

I am a German native speaker.

But we can resolve this confusion around "spontaneously" by going to its actual origin: The English word "spontaneous" is a loan word and originates from the Latin "spontaneus" which itself derives from the Latin noun "spons" (feminine) primarily meaning "free will". It also has a secondary connotation meaning "impulse". [1]

So the common English usage is closer to how the Romans used the word. That does make sense: The Romans conquered the British isles but failed to win against the Barbarians that lived east of the river Rhine. The Germans only much later incorporated Latin vocabulary and did so mostly only in elite circles. That's possibly why "spontan" means "acting out of impulse".

[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/spons#Latin

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#250

Post by ben_w »

melvinmelih wrote: post #237
ben_w wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly considered the Netherlands… «maar ik kan een beetje maar Nederlands spreken» and I'm not even sure I'm supposed to use "maar" twice in that sentence or not. (Sadly I don't even get to use the wonderful «Ik ben groot», because I'm only tall by non-Dutch standards).

> «maar ik kan een beetje maar Nederlands spreken» and I'm not even sure I'm supposed to use "maar" twice in that sentence or not. “maar” can both mean “but” or “only” but you have to use it like this: «maar ik kan maar een beetje Nederlands spreken» literally translated as: «but I only can speak a little Dutch». A native speaker would use it twice.

Bedankt :)
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