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Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

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Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#631

Post by martindbp »

oblio wrote: post #427
martindbp wrote: post #401

Yes, tactile buttons are better for the user. But that won't matter in the long run as cars become more and more autonomous. Tesla's FSD for instance is far from perfect (and MobilEye will bring this to other brands), but when not actively controlling the vehicle 99% of the time, tactile buttons vs touchscreens becomes much less of an issue.

1. You do know that other car manufacturers have more advanced and more reliable driver's assistance than Tesla's fake FSD, right? MobilEye or not. 2. We could be 50 years away from universal real FSD.

Define "more advanced"? Besides perhaps MobilEye's SuperVision there is no ADAS as advanced in terms of what it can do, if you believe otherwise you need a reality check. Reliability? Sure, Mercedes has their famed L3 in stop and go traffic, in good weather, if the road doesn't curve too much. FSD, if you use it, takes over your driving 99% of the time, which is why I'm saying tactile buttons or not is just not that important at that point. It might not make sense to switch back to buttons if cars of all brands will have their own version of FSD in a few years.

2. I very much doubt that, but even if there is no "true" L4 FSD in a consumer vehicle anytime soon, this thread is about tactile buttons and my points still stands.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#632

Post by salmonlogs »

jes5199 wrote: post #292
hunter2_ wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You turn the physical dial, and regardless of the outcome, you know that your input was received by the HCI, so you don't need to wonder if you should try again. If it worked, great; if not, oh well; no need to look at it and try again though. That's the benefit.

I’ve used car stereos where the physical volume knob was so laggy and buggy that sometimes it would misread its own input and change the volume in the wrong direction unless you turned it very slowly while watching the display to see if it was registering. People will absolutely find a way to fuck it up.

Why would you need to look at a screen? Surely the feedback from a volume knob is the volume changing?

If it doesn't change -> change it more

It it changes too much -> change it less

If you realise it needs to be moved slowly -> move it slowly

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#633

Post by xmcqdpt2 »

Beldin wrote: post #460
bradgessler wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems > Given that with a physical button you didn't have to take your eyes off the road and given the tactile feedback you know for sure you activated/pressed/moved the control I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and pre…

> If a touch screen interface were properly designed... Huh? They cannot be. You cannot get the same level of tactile feedback from a touchscreen as from a properly designed knob. > For me, when things get dangerous, its when pressing the button (physical or touch) doesn't do what its suppose to do. I have experienced that regularly in cars. When you have clear, unambiguous feedback that you gave the input exactly ho…

> Huh? They cannot be. You cannot get the same level of tactile feedback from a touchscreen as from a properly designed knob.

That's true but also I feel like they could make much more tactile touch screen if they actually spent the money. For example, you could use a pressure sensitive touch screen so that mere touch doesn't activate buttons, and you could put a haptic feedback mechanism in it like that of Apple that actually informs you when you press something. The haptic feedback could even subtly tell you whether you are touching a button before you click it.

The reason they don't do that is that touchscreens are a cost cutting measure and making them as expensive as buttons would cut into margins.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#634

Post by sonar_un »

Aromasin wrote: post #522
checkyoursudo wrote: post #393

With. A. Passion. Other touch screens (or similar things) I dislike: - the controls on my stove top - the controls on my monitor - the controls on my tv - the controls on my thermostat - probably more All of these should have physical buttons for the limited number of functions required. Or, at a minimum, for navigation and confirmation. Touch screens there suck. My wife's car has a touch screen on the control/infota…

I feel like industrial designers looked at Apple in the early 2000's with how well their touchscreens went, and just lost any sense of logic or sensibility. Everything had to be touchscreen, with no thought or reason put into why phones in particular needed touch screens. Buttons meant there was less space for a screen. They couldn't make the display any bigger, or the buttons any smaller, so an innovation was needed…

In a way though, Apple tried to solve the problem with haptic feedback. What is completely lacking in all touchscreen controls these days is any kind of feedback. So Apple actually recognized the need for a feedback with touchscreens and invented a solution. Industrial designers didn't even try to "solve" this problem.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#635

Post by nordsieck »

emodendroket wrote: post #445
hilbert42 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My civil engineer friends face losing their licenses, fines or jail time if they are found professionally negligent." These standards ought to be applied more widely and done in conjunction with tightened consumer law. In many cases the quality of electronics equipment has gone to the dogs. I could give instances of appliances I use that can only be used in a hobbled mode—numbers of published functions simply don't…

I don't think jail time for making software too bloated and slow for your liking is a serious proposal.

> I don't think jail time for making software too bloated and slow for your liking is a serious proposal.

Especially since the boundaries of "making software" is pretty blurry.

Would creating a suboptimal Excel spreadsheet count as "making software too bloated"? A pretty strong case could be made for that.

Would creating a clunky personal homepage count as "making software too bloated"? A pretty strong case could be made for that.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#636

Post by ConcernedCoder »

TheFragenTaken wrote: post #533
jjav wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what? You've got physical buttons? Big whoop. That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous. No, that's wrong. Problem with touchscreens is that (1) you need to look at them and (2) there is no tactile feedback of whether you pressed it or not and (3) you need to hover your arm in a moving car at just the right spot. Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems. If the ac…

The fact that these cars pass safety certification, makes me question certifiers. It's illegal to look at your phone while driving, for good reason, but it's legal to fiddle with a damn computer screen, because it's part of the car. I predict it's a matter of time before we'll see a correlation between number of crashes, and cars with touchscreens.

The fact that my touch screen will often display a distracting message that reminds me that it's unsafe to take my eyes off the road while driving and require someone to touch the "ok" button to dismiss it is the epitome of dangerous stupidity...

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#637

Post by rollcat »

masklinn wrote: post #630
rollcat wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only saving grace of those is the ease of cleaning spills. Disagree. Spills can turn hobs on & off, and at best cause the entire control surface to lock up and start beeping - which can quickly turn worst, if a hob happened to turn on a split second earlier. Knobs. On the front, not on the top.

That only works for full stoves, something I don’t think I’ve seen in 15 years. How do you do knobs on the front (or side) with an embedded cooktop? Raise it by 3 inches so you have space for knobs?

If you're embedding the hobs on the top, then embed the knobs on the front, and run a wire in between. It's not like it was meant to be portable, if you are making one cut-out, why not make two.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#638

Post by itsoktocry »

tp34 wrote: post #573
bradgessler wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems > Given that with a physical button you didn't have to take your eyes off the road and given the tactile feedback you know for sure you activated/pressed/moved the control I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and pre…

Do you need to look at your computer mouse to "click" the button(s)? Assuming you possess this basic competence, I find myself wondering how you managed to purchase a vehicle with such absurd ergonomics. You have a strange, poorly designed vehicle This "big dashboard full of buttons." Please provide a picture. Is this a custom design? "For me, when things get dangerous, its [sic] when pressing the button (physical or…

>What actions are you referring to? Changing the audio volume? The interior fan speed?

This entire thread has me wondering the same thing. I've owned many cars and drive far more than average. What are y'all adjusting so much that's causing issues here?

If we exclude infotainment, which even the best have lousy driving ergonomics, you need to be able to turn wipers on/off (most are automatic now), turn the HVAC up or down (many you can just leave at a single temperature in more modern systems) and turn your headlights on/off, high/low (these have been automatic in the last few cars I've owned). Most other things should be adjusted before you start driving.

What are you having to adjust, outside your music, that's so difficult?

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#639

Post by practice9 »

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #189

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

And if that physical button is for clicking through 4+ states, I would rather take a touchscreen with well designed main screen widgets.
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