On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch • Hacker News Board

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#201

Post by nologic01 » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 10:19 AM UTC

usrusr wrote: post #191

derriz wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is perhaps nitpicking but I wish non-native English speakers would not use the term “Anglo-Saxon” to describe anglophone or (better) English speaking countries. The term refers to the original north Germanic invaders of England and so has tribal (racial) connotations and is typically used in English to distinguish people on that basis. Many/most Americans (e.g. black or Native American) so not consider themselve…

What happened to Anglo-American anyways? Substituting that term with the wildly incorrect but similar sounding Anglo-Saxon is quite literally a linguistic attack, unfortunately one that seems to occasionally get picked up by people meaning no harm because of how "more historic" is often conflated with "more sophisticated" even if it's the exact opposite when the assumed historic implications are wrong.

I stand corrected. Anglo-American would definitely be closer to the intended meaning. The term is only meant to be a rough placeholder for a set of norms and values anyway (and the corresponding economic systems and arrangements). It is neither geographically nor historically particularly sharp (has nothing indeed to do with race) and some non-English speaking parts of the world (e.g., the Netherlands) have been very much aligned.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#202

Post by bolanyo » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 10:19 AM UTC

anditherobot wrote: post #198

bolanyo wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is unreasonable to live permanently in a country without speaking the local language But what if there are countries where the 'local language' eventually becomes like Irish in Ireland? Everyone who goes to school in the Republic of Ireland will learn some Irish at school. Almost every Irish person will know some Irish expressions, Irish songs, and be aware of Irish-language culture and literature as well as Eng…

Will English supplant Dutch and German in a few generations? In a way they are related, is it why people from those countries pick it up so easily? Like kids growing up in metropolitan areas immersed in English only environments

I think that the links between these languages do make it easy for people from the Netherlands, Germany and Scandinavia to learn English. These countries, to give them credit, have also seen the importance of good language education, in particular English learning, for a long time.

There is also an effect which people from other countries have described which makes it harder for foreigners to learn the local language. If you approach almost anyone in the Netherlands and speak to them in semi-competent Dutch, they will often respond in fluent and nearly accentless English. This includes older people, people with only high-school education, people in official positions. So not only do you not need to learn, you are discouraged from practicing by the local population's competence and hospitality.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#203

Post by systemtest » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 10:21 AM UTC

jillesvangurp wrote: post #28

MandieD wrote: post #11

Observation of Berlin from the weekend I spent there last month: literally the only place I was better off speaking German rather than English was a Turkish cafe. Everywhere else? Too many people understood English far better than they did German, especially anywhere to do with tech. Some of the tech people I talked to were running into being otherwise eligible for a permanent residence permit, but not being able to…

One thing that is specific to Berlin is that increasingly bars and cafes are staffed by foreigners. This is a quirk of the German employment system, a scarcity of staff, and the wide availability of expats in need of gigs. Instead of hiring permanent staff and paying them a salary, it's less risky to have temporary workers. However, you can't do that endlessly with the same people in the German system. You would have…

If you stay and open a restaurant in Berlin, presumably for the long term, wouldn't that make you an immigrant? There is a Syrian bakery in my street and people don't call him an expat.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#204

Post by disgruntledphd2 » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 10:22 AM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #24

G3rn0ti wrote: post #9

As a native Urberliner I am both flattered and confused by the fact so many young Americans choose to live in my home town. I always wondered what makes it so attractive to you. I mean, winters are miserable, the city is ugly compared to many others in Germany, the people are rather not friendly to each other, the German language is difficult to learn, our history is troublesome, German immigration laws still difficu…

I'm British by birth, I chose Berlin after Brexit because: 1. Friends here 2. Alternative countries were Luxembourg/Switzerland (more expensive); Canada (worse weather); Ireland (fear I might get blamed personally for the stupid done by British politicians, and the UK Gov was being loudly stupid about Ireland at the time); USA (weird culture, guns); Australia/New Zealand (too far from the old country to visit regular…

> Ireland (fear I might get blamed personally for the stupid done by British politicians, and the UK Gov was being loudly stupid about Ireland at the time

Just to be clear, this basically would never happen with most people. Now, the North of Ireland (the part still in the UK) might be a little different, but most Irish (i.e. republic) people couldn't give two sh*ts about where you're from as long as you're good craic.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#205

Post by nologic01 » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 10:26 AM UTC

nirimda wrote: post #190

derriz wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is perhaps nitpicking but I wish non-native English speakers would not use the term “Anglo-Saxon” to describe anglophone or (better) English speaking countries. The term refers to the original north Germanic invaders of England and so has tribal (racial) connotations and is typically used in English to distinguish people on that basis. Many/most Americans (e.g. black or Native American) so not consider themselve…

The bigger problem is that they've used "anglosaxon" to use what we would probably refer to as neoliberalism, acting as if a controversial policy setting is somehow cultural or racial. You can be a good anglosaxon who opposes neoliberalism. You can be a good English speaker and oppose neoliberalism - whether from the right or the left.

neoliberalism is a second-half of the 20th century phenomenon. The mass production and commercialization of culture significantly precedes that, it is more an advanced industrialization pattern (late 19th / early 20th), with the invention of photography, vinyl disks, movies etc.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#206

Post by sgt » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 10:28 AM UTC

vintermann wrote: post #93

jillesvangurp wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that is specific to Berlin is that increasingly bars and cafes are staffed by foreigners. This is a quirk of the German employment system, a scarcity of staff, and the wide availability of expats in need of gigs. Instead of hiring permanent staff and paying them a salary, it's less risky to have temporary workers. However, you can't do that endlessly with the same people in the German system. You would have…

Yes, I was shocked the first time in Oslo when I went to a cafe and understood that the staff didn't understand a word of Norwegian. This is probably a capital thing. There's an expat-run café near where I live (not in Oslo) that employs a lot of US and Australian young people for shorter periods, and if they don't understand Norwegian, they surely do a lot better job of hiding it and guessing what you're asking for.

As a social experiment, tell them you don't speak English. Only Norwegian. See if they manage a few words from their language course. They might actually appreciate being forced to take the leap.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#207

Post by ricardobayes » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 10:29 AM UTC

bolanyo wrote: post #184

friendlyHornet wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is talk of dropping this requirement, but I'll believe it when I see it. I really hope it doesn't get dropped; it is unreasonable to live permanently in a country without speaking the local language There are other types of residencies available if someone is an expat and doesn't plan on staying permanently And it's not like they're asking for a high fluency; with B1, you can barely hold a simple coherent con…

> it is unreasonable to live permanently in a country without speaking the local language But what if there are countries where the 'local language' eventually becomes like Irish in Ireland? Everyone who goes to school in the Republic of Ireland will learn some Irish at school. Almost every Irish person will know some Irish expressions, Irish songs, and be aware of Irish-language culture and literature as well as Eng…

Wish Spain adopted that view a bit more. Let alone English, some of local officials just refuse to speak Castellano and tell you to come back when you have learned the local dialect/language (lol). Most official forms are primarily in the local language - sometimes official websites too without option to translate to the official language of the country. Most kids in local schools learn Castellano Spanish as a foreign language - imagine the disadvantage it brings. Local universities require a local dialect language exam as part of their entrance, even to foreigners. Most classes are held in the local language. I get and support regional pride but it should be done with a common sense approach.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#208

Post by ghaff » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 10:32 AM UTC

systemtest wrote: post #203

jillesvangurp wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that is specific to Berlin is that increasingly bars and cafes are staffed by foreigners. This is a quirk of the German employment system, a scarcity of staff, and the wide availability of expats in need of gigs. Instead of hiring permanent staff and paying them a salary, it's less risky to have temporary workers. However, you can't do that endlessly with the same people in the German system. You would have…

If you stay and open a restaurant in Berlin, presumably for the long term, wouldn't that make you an immigrant? There is a Syrian bakery in my street and people don't call him an expat.

It probably depends on the specifics. In Asia, I've known a fair number of Europeans who have lived there for a significant period of time and I would still think of them as expats.

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#209

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 10:33 AM UTC

pimeys wrote: post #107

G3rn0ti wrote: post #9

As a native Urberliner I am both flattered and confused by the fact so many young Americans choose to live in my home town. I always wondered what makes it so attractive to you. I mean, winters are miserable, the city is ugly compared to many others in Germany, the people are rather not friendly to each other, the German language is difficult to learn, our history is troublesome, German immigration laws still difficu…

I moved eleven years ago because I loved the party scene. Took me less than a month to find a huge apartment for under seven hundred a month from a nice neighborhood. Now I cannot move out anymore without doubling or tripling my rent. Also chose to study Rust instead of German, and been having so much work afterwards that I still haven't started my German studies. My husband speaks good German so that helps. The weat…

[deleted]

Re: On the unexpected joys of Denglisch, Berlinglish and global Englisch

#210

Post by ben_w » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 10:33 AM UTC

disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #204

ben_w wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm British by birth, I chose Berlin after Brexit because: 1. Friends here 2. Alternative countries were Luxembourg/Switzerland (more expensive); Canada (worse weather); Ireland (fear I might get blamed personally for the stupid done by British politicians, and the UK Gov was being loudly stupid about Ireland at the time); USA (weird culture, guns); Australia/New Zealand (too far from the old country to visit regular…

> Ireland (fear I might get blamed personally for the stupid done by British politicians, and the UK Gov was being loudly stupid about Ireland at the time Just to be clear, this basically would never happen with most people. Now, the North of Ireland (the part still in the UK) might be a little different, but most Irish (i.e. republic) people couldn't give two sh*ts about where you're from as long as you're good crai…

I assume people are much the same everywhere — 80% fantastic, 10% arseholes, 10% lizardman constant.

But with headlines like this, and a somewhat-posh English accent, I didn't want to risk either of those 10s: https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/fury-at-torys-call-to-th...

In retrospect it would've been fine, but I had to guess in advance the UK wasn't going to actually try that, and they kinda have a history there…