Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens • Hacker News Board

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#441

Post by neuronic » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 7:17 AM UTC

IceWreck wrote: post #421

jjav wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what? You've got physical buttons? Big whoop. That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous. No, that's wrong. Problem with touchscreens is that (1) you need to look at them and (2) there is no tactile feedback of whether you pressed it or not and (3) you need to hover your arm in a moving car at just the right spot. Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems. If the ac…

Why not have haptic feedback like in phones

Every button with major function can have different surfaces and haptics according to function. After driving a car for a week or two I typically get really good at just using buttons without looking. But that's just subjective. The VW ID.3s I drive I can only change stuff at red lights or parking spots because of the terrible UX mixed with the downsides of touchscreens. Also regular freezing and crashes.

I would be curious to see a well implemented, fast response touchscreen design. I am strongly in favor of buttons but I would love to try a touchscreen operating with the boundaries set by users in this thread (16ms reposne time etc...). I will keep an open mind but have not seen a working example yet.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#442

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 7:17 AM UTC

ISO-morphism wrote: post #308

sircastor wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." I used to be an infotainment software engineer for an Auto maker. There’s this idea in the software industry that because the software behaves poorly on your car’s system, it must’ve been written poorly by someone who didn’t know what they were doing. In my experience it was almost always a matter of the hardware being stretched way past its limits.…

I believe that the engineers are competent at developing software, and think that a lot of the quality issues are due to engineers abdicating authority over the software to managers and never saying "No, adding in that feature at this point in the timeline is going to make this a steaming pile of shit and I refuse to do it and still call myself a software engineer." I get that we have families to feed, but I've seen…

I often see sentiment like this here but I think there's a disconnect between the sacrifice you're expecting people to make and harm caused by the work. It's admirable for someone to put their own job security second to obeying really harmful directives, but something that's going to make the music system laggier?

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#443

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 7:18 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #425

Transfinity wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no incentive for an engineer to do that. Saying yes and delivering crap gets you a bonus, hard truths get you shuffled around or made redundant. There's no real consequence for delivering crap, so that's what happens. Contrast this with other engineering fields, where the engineer is truly responsible for the decisions they make. My civil engineer friends face losing their licenses, fines or jail time if they…

It should be, at least on countries where Software Engineering actually means something, and not a title that one can easy peasy call themselves after a six weeks bootcamp.

Oh this again. Yeah a certification is going to solve all the problems.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#444

Post by bottlepalm » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 7:18 AM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #330

lvturner wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if it's the touch screen in my car that I love or the rest of the control system. But for me the whole thing is set and forget, if I need to adjust volume it's a scroll wheel on my steering wheel -- air conditioning I never really need to adjust. Sat nav -- yes I need to adjust this occasionally, but it's either voice command or park and change the destination with a keyboard -- but I don't see this bein…

> My signular gripe is that there is no physical button to open the glove-box, which is an annoying but very infrequent occurance. That's really weird. Button nothing, why is there not just a handle on the glove box? Who thought it was a good idea to hook that up to the computer? Does that mean you can't open the glove box unless the car is turned on?

Tesla's are always on, there is no off button. The glove box is software controlled so you can restrict access to it in valet mode, or set a pin to open it. In the latest update you can configure the long press on the steering wheel button to open it.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#445

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 7:18 AM UTC

hilbert42 wrote: post #377

Transfinity wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no incentive for an engineer to do that. Saying yes and delivering crap gets you a bonus, hard truths get you shuffled around or made redundant. There's no real consequence for delivering crap, so that's what happens. Contrast this with other engineering fields, where the engineer is truly responsible for the decisions they make. My civil engineer friends face losing their licenses, fines or jail time if they…

"My civil engineer friends face losing their licenses, fines or jail time if they are found professionally negligent." These standards ought to be applied more widely and done in conjunction with tightened consumer law. In many cases the quality of electronics equipment has gone to the dogs. I could give instances of appliances I use that can only be used in a hobbled mode—numbers of published functions simply don't…

I don't think jail time for making software too bloated and slow for your liking is a serious proposal.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#446

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 7:20 AM UTC

vocram wrote: post #403

speeder wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a 2 month old baby, and got fired from my last job after 6 months of unpaid overtime... I am currently trying (again) to get into embedded development. I would gladly take the job of the guy that refused to make shitty software, if that means I can keep feeding my baby. Unless it would be too unethical. (I refuse to do work that will kill people, for example I won't work for Palantir, companies that make sketc…

> I refuse to do work that will kill people Isn’t a crappy UI on a car something that could kill people?

In some abstract sense, like how you could say that you should absolutely not drive a car as you could accidentally kill a pedestrian.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#447

Post by dkjaudyeqooe » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 7:20 AM UTC

bradgessler wrote: post #413

jjav wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what? You've got physical buttons? Big whoop. That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous. No, that's wrong. Problem with touchscreens is that (1) you need to look at them and (2) there is no tactile feedback of whether you pressed it or not and (3) you need to hover your arm in a moving car at just the right spot. Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems. If the ac…

> Physical buttons cleanly resolve all of these major problems > Given that with a physical button you didn't have to take your eyes off the road and given the tactile feedback you know for sure you activated/pressed/moved the control I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and pre…

> I never understand the "you don't have to look at buttons" argument—my car has lots of physical buttons and to push them, I briefly have to look at the console, find the button, and press it.

It's true of some buttons, but there are lots that you don't, mostly on the dipsticks: indicators, wipers, lights and the like.

Others are well delineated and just need a quick glance, but lining up your finger and multiple presses on a touchscreen is not that at all.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#448

Post by te_chris » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 7:23 AM UTC

yellowapple wrote: post #121

flyinghamster wrote: post #39

I think one of the most frustrating aspects of this whole kerfluffle is the automakers' longstanding willingness to ignore customers and double down at any pushback. It's downright stupid that it has taken this level of screaming from customers to roll back a design choice that should never have been made.

It ain't just cars. I can't think of very many people who genuinely enjoy the "smart" aspect of "smart TVs", for example; nearly everyone I know who owns a TV also owns some device that not only does everything the TV's "smarts" can do but does them consistently better and can be trivially replaced should that ever change.

My smart TV (LG C2) has never and will never touch the internet. Apple TV for all the functionality (and occasionally terreistrial)

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#449

Post by tasuki » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 7:23 AM UTC

sircastor wrote: post #229

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #189

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

> because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." I used to be an infotainment software engineer for an Auto maker. There’s this idea in the software industry that because the software behaves poorly on your car’s system, it must’ve been written poorly by someone who didn’t know what they were doing. In my experience it was almost always a matter of the hardware being stretched way past its limits.…

> In my experience it was almost always a matter of the hardware being stretched way past its limits.

What aspects of the hardware would lead to 500ms response times?

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#450

Post by detuur » Thu, Apr 27, 2023, 7:24 AM UTC

NoZebra120vClip wrote: post #170

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Touch screens are great for stuff that needs to be cleaned though so ER doctors are probably stuck with them.

I believe what the OP meant by hatred is that ER doctors and Insurance Companies need to clean up after auto accidents caused by drivers who were distracted by mandatory touchscreen use (which is ironic when mobile phone use, and distracted driving in general, is outlawed in many jurisdictions.) I am sure ER doctors hate to use touchscreens as well, but that's for another thread.

I did a project once for a touchless interface using a Leap Motion (remember those?) for use in operating theatres. The software was a 3D viewer for MRI scans. The surgeons attached to the project were excited, because currently they operated the software by telling the nurses how to rotate and zoom, which didn't work so great.

In the end it ended up not working well enough (the Leap Motion would often give glitchy positioning data), but I believe it's the way forward.