I think the vision of many car makers (Tesla at least) is self-driving and voice commands. In that context, the question touch screen vs physical buttons doesn't matter.
> (Tesla at least) is self-driving
Oh yeah.. how's that going?
Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens
361–370 of 1001 posts
Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens
#362Earlier quoted context omitted.
I believe that the engineers are competent at developing software, and think that a lot of the quality issues are due to engineers abdicating authority over the software to managers and never saying "No, adding in that feature at this point in the timeline is going to make this a steaming pile of shit and I refuse to do it and still call myself a software engineer." I get that we have families to feed, but I've seen…
There's no incentive for an engineer to do that. Saying yes and delivering crap gets you a bonus, hard truths get you shuffled around or made redundant. There's no real consequence for delivering crap, so that's what happens. Contrast this with other engineering fields, where the engineer is truly responsible for the decisions they make. My civil engineer friends face losing their licenses, fines or jail time if they…
The incentive is having a rewarding job where you develop products you are proud of. Once I have food to eat, this is by far the most important incentive for me and it greatly outweighs e.g my desire for promotions, raises and bonuses. If I can have both, great. If I need to choose one, it’s the fulfilling job and product pride every day.
Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens
#363Earlier quoted context omitted.
> because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." I used to be an infotainment software engineer for an Auto maker. There’s this idea in the software industry that because the software behaves poorly on your car’s system, it must’ve been written poorly by someone who didn’t know what they were doing. In my experience it was almost always a matter of the hardware being stretched way past its limits.…
That still just sounds like people not knowing what they're doing. In no world would automakers say, "Hey you know, we just did all of this tire engineering with this rubber, but let's change the composition at the last minute and not retest all of its physical properties." So, why should it be any different with software? Because some sucker PM didn't have the brains to say, "We can't actually do that."?
It's not that that the sucker program manager doesn't have the brains, or at least less so than PMs in other fields. It's that the PMs in automotive are not empowered to say that. There are 7-8 layers of management above them, all of whom are being shat on by the layer above them, and there's a greater disincentive to causing delays to a vastly interconnected program vs. staying in their lane and polishing the turd they've been assigned the best they can.
Another big problem is a very high employee turnover and there is no redundancy in roles and skillsets because of severe cost cutting through the ages. Tech is chosen by senior engineers but vision, knowledge and experience are lost and implementation suffers every time anyone moves companies. My company has been working on an automotive project for the last 3.5 years. I deal with around 10 people on at least a weekly basis. Out of those 10, only one was around at the start of the project. We're also working with another Tier 1, where only 2 out the 12 have been around for 3 years.
Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens
#364Earlier quoted context omitted.
... with the caveat that > 10 and 2 o’clock is no longer recommended because it can be dangerous in vehicles with smaller steering wheels and equipped with airbags. (Source: https://driving-tests.org/beginner-drivers/how-to-hold-a-ste... ) and the implication that otherwise the trad 10 and 2 position recommended for decades is still 100% A-OK.
Not sure about GP - but in my country they teach the 9 and 3 position when you take your license. I’ve always thought 10 and 2 was an American thing.
I'm in Australia (and wrote the comment above yours) and was taught to drive (late 1970s) using a higher hand position - "ten and two" but without that phrasing.
Also to always have two hands on the wheel, sliding it through one hand by a solid grip of the other .. all centred about off bitumen rough road driving with unexpected dips, cambers, holes that might catch you by surprise.
I suspect the higher hand position gives a greater advantage in older vehicles with direct under geared mechanical steering as there's more travel from the hand griping position downwards around the arc before "running out of travel" and having to move that hand .. ie better control on bad roads with odd cambers etc.
Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens
#365Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even if the infotainment has been in development for 15 years, all new cars I've played with seem less responsive than a 1st-generation iPhone despite having a UI that is no more capable. Either the engineers aren't making the most of the hardware or the hardware is underpowered by a few decades.
Seem is doing a lot of lifting there. For one, there is no generation of iPhone that is safe to use while driving. Such that you have a ton more tolerance for a phone than you would a car system. Mostly for good reasons. It doesn't help that iphones from that time frame aren't really in use today. Car systems are.
Yeah, CarPlay is definitely not a thing..
Also, maybe the expected lifetime of something used to turn up and down the volume and show a map while being in a fixed case and not even having its own battery is different than a device running on battery, thrown around in everyday life and literally being pressed on 0-24. And even then an iphone from the last 5 years might well be expected to run for 5 more with a battery replacement at most. Mobile hardware went over a huge change in this timeframe.
Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens
#366Earlier quoted context omitted.
This isn't how tactile buttons in modern cars work. You're doing the same thing as pushing keys on a keyboard. The software can still be slow. Turn the physical volume dial on a car with a slow Apple CarPlay interface and tell me how that works out for you. Oh, it's too loud? But it takes 2 seconds for the software to respond due to lag and now you're fiddling with the volume button trying to not make it worse? A phy…
My car has this problem, only sometimes it takes a lot longer than two seconds. The car when started always turns on the radio at the last volume the radio was on at, regardless of whether it was on when the car was turned off. More than once, I have turned it on, and it was playing at full volume the Sirius FM ads, and would not lower the volume or turn off ( via the other physical buttons) for at least half a minut…
We have a Renault and it is similar. I don't listen to the radio. If I have any audio, it's either something from my phone or navigation (also phone, usually off).
The default on the car is to turn on the radio on engine start. No way to change it. No way to make it remember that the last time the car was used it was set to Bluetooth audio. Switching back to Bluetooth requires navigating through 3-4 layers of menus. Even when you turn it off, it randomly turns back on for no reason. :/
My 10+ year old VW: remembers which audio source was last used. Phone autoconnects via Bluetooth every time with no hassle. Volume is never an issue (real buttons that respond in a timely manner on the steering wheel). Off is off until you turn it on again (with a physical button).
Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens
#367Earlier quoted context omitted.
Touch screens are also pretty terrible for older people. Vision and fine motor skills both degenerate. Without tactile feedback, it is hard for older people to determine if they've successfully clicked on something. Gestures can be tough to teach and successfully implement without error.
Worse than touch screens are those touch buttons (you know, where the thing is just printed on the outside of the TV). I have no idea why, I'm fluent with touchscreens in the usual way but something in my brain just.... I don't know. Theoretically it should be the same, right? Except it feels horrible and wrong and I even have trouble trying to find the button. Probably because I'm vision-impaired and an actual touch…
About touch buttons, I have seen once a lift with touch buttons for controls.
For accessibility, the floor were also written in Braille. I thought to myself: "nice, they thought about vision impaired people".
Then, a friend of mine, which has completely lost vision and can read Braille, jokingly said to me when he arrived: "Trying to find the right button, I probably send the lift to all floors!"
Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens
#368I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…
> because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." I used to be an infotainment software engineer for an Auto maker. There’s this idea in the software industry that because the software behaves poorly on your car’s system, it must’ve been written poorly by someone who didn’t know what they were doing. In my experience it was almost always a matter of the hardware being stretched way past its limits.…
A talented software developer should know how to use the phrase ‘no’ Effectively.
Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens
#369Earlier quoted context omitted.
> because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." I used to be an infotainment software engineer for an Auto maker. There’s this idea in the software industry that because the software behaves poorly on your car’s system, it must’ve been written poorly by someone who didn’t know what they were doing. In my experience it was almost always a matter of the hardware being stretched way past its limits.…
There's a 0% chance 4 yr old hardware can't handle what GP is asking it to do. > Product people have been picking at the design and asking for changes way too late Sounds like classic everything-bolted-on-never-refactored-always-add-features you see in the vast majority of companies. Which is fine if you're making a social app or CRM but not okay when talking about heavy machinery. No company ever prioritizes making…
4 yr old what hardware? There are many many categories ranging from microchips barely using any electricity.
Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens
#370I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…
> because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." I used to be an infotainment software engineer for an Auto maker. There’s this idea in the software industry that because the software behaves poorly on your car’s system, it must’ve been written poorly by someone who didn’t know what they were doing. In my experience it was almost always a matter of the hardware being stretched way past its limits.…
The solution is quite evident is it not? Regulatory bodies to set response latency and limits with over-life degradation as an additional parameter.
Only reason "they’re just being asked to turn lead into gold and often get silver." happens is because automakers know they can get past all regulatory approval with lead/silver or whatever metal you prefer.