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Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

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Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#221

Post by andrewmcwatters »

mtrpcic wrote: post #204
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #189

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

The benefit of buttons isn't in the response time, it's in the tactile feedback that makes it so you don't need 16ms response time. I heard it click, I felt it click, it clicked. If the thing I wanted to happen doesn't, it's because it's broken and not because I can't tell if I clicked the right spot on my iPad. Not having to take your eyes off the road in these cases is the benefit of buttons, and no improvement to…

This isn't how tactile buttons in modern cars work. You're doing the same thing as pushing keys on a keyboard. The software can still be slow.

Turn the physical volume dial on a car with a slow Apple CarPlay interface and tell me how that works out for you.

Oh, it's too loud? But it takes 2 seconds for the software to respond due to lag and now you're fiddling with the volume button trying to not make it worse?

A physical button didn't fix that.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#222

Post by fnordpiglet »

crooked-v wrote: post #18
fnordpiglet wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually the voice command is a button on the steering wheel.

Sure, but you have to already know what the voice command is to turn on the seat heater and reproduce that every time, versus being able to look around and just... see an appropriate button. And that's before getting into the mess of misheard commands that even Google and Apple still can't get right despite having gigantic teams working on it 24/7.

As is mentioned in a parallel comment this will change dramatically as LLM are introduced to voice assistants. LLM are much more robust in inferring semantic meaning from noisy language. As long as they don’t ask the LLM to solve partial differential equations and confine it’s originating prompt aggressively to only interpret voice text transcriptions to a finite set of actions, it’ll be amazing.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#223

Post by overgard »

munificent wrote: post #214

I'm surprised the article didn't mention one of the key regulations that led to this as an unintended consequence: By law, cars in the US must now have a back-up camera. That means every car must have a screen. Given that, automakers figured they may as well use the damn thing for everything else too and cut costs. It wasn't just that they wanted to take away tactile controls to save money. It was that they had to ma…

Eh, those backup cameras are super useful though, and the screen can be small. My 2013 Kia has mostly physical buttons and like an 8 inch or so touchscreen (that I never touch). I would hate losing that camera.

Plus those screens can be useful for safety. I much prefer the screen on my dashboard for maps compared to having it on my phone (even with a mount it's bouncy and small)

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#224

Post by wlesieutre »

sircastor wrote: post #212

I’m a former infotainment engineer. Touchscreens made it possible to make modern technologies available, and make them accessible in the car to people. If this results in car makers ditching touchscreens, people will get mad that they can’t use CarPlay like they used to. In my experience, most people who have driven their car for ages can’t use the buttons on their center console without looking at them. Maybe the vo…

I can do all of mine: three knobs are vent selection, fan speed, and temperature, three buttons below those are AC, defrost, and recirculate.

Don’t know every vent knob position, but the first (upper vents), second (adds floor vents), and last (defrost) are the important ones.

I couldn’t do the aftermarket Bluetooth radio, but the only buttons I use there are prev/next, plus the volume knob.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#225

Post by naikrovek »

anamexis wrote: post #215
naikrovek wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the apple Macbook trackpad proves that this tactile feedback could be done for touch screens also. touchscreens are worse but they don't have to be. manufacturers just don't care enough to make them better. they're too busy charging more for touchscreens while saving tons of money on buttons, which are expensive in comparison.

You still have to look to find where to press. With real buttons, you can find the right button purely with tactile feedback, as well.

> You still have to look to find where to press. With real buttons, you can find the right button purely with tactile feedback, as well.

that's not a given at all. maybe for computer keyboards I guess, but not for cars.

car makers always seem to want buttons to be flush with their surroundings and have no bumps or dips on them to help you find the button you're after. I always have to look for the button if it isn't on my steering wheel, and I usually have to look when it's there as well.

the only control in my car I don't ever need my eyes to find and use is the volume knob for the entertainment system. maybe the hazard button, too, but I haven't needed to push it yet.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#226

Post by jsjohnst »

amluto wrote: post #220
naikrovek wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the apple Macbook trackpad proves that this tactile feedback could be done for touch screens also. touchscreens are worse but they don't have to be. manufacturers just don't care enough to make them better. they're too busy charging more for touchscreens while saving tons of money on buttons, which are expensive in comparison.

Can you explain? Mac trackpads can be delightful, but they’re delightful when the user is looking at the screen. Which is a bad idea when driving.

I believe what GP meant is the feedback they offer. Do you think the Magic Trackpad moves? Hint it doesn’t, the “click” you feel is a haptic feedback motor.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#227

Post by wkat4242 »

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #189

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

> That physical button that takes 500ms to respond is still as dangerous. You've just removed one problem.

Major accidents are almost always a cascade of errors. It may not be perfect, but not having to take eyes off the road can really break the chain of a big accident in progress.

A touchscreen UI probably won't cause an accident on its own, but it will be a link in the chain of a driver already tired and lost in the area, trying to find the button to press to turn on the headlights. Because yes recently there was one car manufacturer that moved that function to touch also, and proudly claimed their software was 100% bug-free. I'm sure the audience here knows how ridiculous such a statement is.

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#228

Post by morkalork »

munificent wrote: post #214

I'm surprised the article didn't mention one of the key regulations that led to this as an unintended consequence: By law, cars in the US must now have a back-up camera. That means every car must have a screen. Given that, automakers figured they may as well use the damn thing for everything else too and cut costs. It wasn't just that they wanted to take away tactile controls to save money. It was that they had to ma…

Did back up cameras save that many lives?

Re: Automakers are starting to admit that drivers hate touchscreens

#229

Post by sircastor »

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #189

I wouldn't mind touchscreens as long as these imbecile developers would strictly limit UI response time to under 16ms. In no world where you're barrelling 3,000+ lbs of mass at tens of miles an hour should you be distracted by some moronic app or subsystem failing to respond in time because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers." Any software running as a part of a motor vehicle should be federally…

> because it was written by under-experienced software "engineers."

I used to be an infotainment software engineer for an Auto maker. There’s this idea in the software industry that because the software behaves poorly on your car’s system, it must’ve been written poorly by someone who didn’t know what they were doing. In my experience it was almost always a matter of the hardware being stretched way past its limits. Your brand new 2024 car’s system has been in development for 4 years. Product people have been picking at the design and asking for changes way too late, and someone in accounting has asked the hardware contractor to cut more cost off the BOM.

My colleagues were tremendously talented. Some of the brightest engineers I’ve had the pleasure of knowing. The developers aren’t lazy or inexperienced, they’re just being asked to turn lead into gold and often get silver.

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