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Google Authenticator cloud sync: Google can see the secrets, even while stored

defcon.social

11–20 of 149 posts

Re: Google Authenticator cloud sync: Google can see the secrets, even while stored

#11
post #3

TOTP (the six digit codes) is bad and outdated 2FA anyway. It's vulnerable to phishing. Use WebAuthn with security keys.

it might not be optimal but it is infinitely better than the no 2fa that most people do or the sms that is all too common among 2fa. it is fine for most people and most things.

Re: Google Authenticator cloud sync: Google can see the secrets, even while stored

#12
post #3

TOTP (the six digit codes) is bad and outdated 2FA anyway. It's vulnerable to phishing. Use WebAuthn with security keys.

The problem with security keys is that they're expensive and you have to carry them around.

TOTP is cheap and much better 2FA than OTP over SMS.

Re: Google Authenticator cloud sync: Google can see the secrets, even while stored

#13
post #2

It's a dual facing problem. Not only do users have no defence against google snooping, but google has no defence against requests to snoop: Apple seems to drive harder to "we'd help if we could, but we can't: to us its just blobs"

Apple regularly gives up customers' private data when requested, and they keep logs of it themselves[1].

[1] https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html

Re: Google Authenticator cloud sync: Google can see the secrets, even while stored

#14
post #2

It's a dual facing problem. Not only do users have no defence against google snooping, but google has no defence against requests to snoop: Apple seems to drive harder to "we'd help if we could, but we can't: to us its just blobs"

Apple regularly gives up customers' private data when requested, and they keep logs of it themselves[1]. [1] https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html

So far apple has not been compelled by the courts to make a tool so they could decrypt the e2e stuff which now pretty much includes all iCloud content. As far as we publicly know.

Re: Google Authenticator cloud sync: Google can see the secrets, even while stored

#15
post #5

> if someone obtains access to your Google Account, all of your 2FA secrets would be compromised. This overlooks that fact Google itself also has access to your 2FA secrets, which could be even worse considering Google could be requested to peer not just into the user's google account, but into accounts they have with other companies/organisations too.

Under what conditions do you suggest "Google itself also has access to all your 2FA secrets"?

(Without cloud backup, & without the installation of a malicious version of 'Google Authenticator', how would they – especially, say, on iOS?)

Re: Google Authenticator cloud sync: Google can see the secrets, even while stored

#16
post #3

TOTP (the six digit codes) is bad and outdated 2FA anyway. It's vulnerable to phishing. Use WebAuthn with security keys.

The problem with security keys is that they're expensive and you have to carry them around. TOTP is cheap and much better 2FA than OTP over SMS.

Security keys can be built into the phone and still provide a reasonable expectation of security, e.g. Apple's Passkeys.

Obviously, a YubiKey would be better, but Passkeys don't require you to carry an additional thing and are still more secure than TOTP apps.

Re: Google Authenticator cloud sync: Google can see the secrets, even while stored

#17

Someone will, of course, claim Google would never do this, but this presumably would make it trivial for Google itself to log into all of your accounts. In many cases they are already syncing a copy of your passwords.

I’d love it if google did this to me. I wouldn’t settle for anything less than a 9 figure payout.

Re: Google Authenticator cloud sync: Google can see the secrets, even while stored

#18
post #5

> if someone obtains access to your Google Account, all of your 2FA secrets would be compromised. This overlooks that fact Google itself also has access to your 2FA secrets, which could be even worse considering Google could be requested to peer not just into the user's google account, but into accounts they have with other companies/organisations too.

Why would google have access to that material? Is their general secret mechanism not E2EE? I'm fairly cynical on google's approach to privacy but I would be shocked if they're normal syncing isn't actually secure and private.

Re: Google Authenticator cloud sync: Google can see the secrets, even while stored

#19

Someone will, of course, claim Google would never do this, but this presumably would make it trivial for Google itself to log into all of your accounts. In many cases they are already syncing a copy of your passwords.

Chrome passwords are encrypted with your password (just not e2ee) so it'd have to be a targeted attack where they log your password the next time you log in and then use that to decrypt your chrome passwords. Chrome also allows you to set your own sync passphrase different from your Google account password.

Re: Google Authenticator cloud sync: Google can see the secrets, even while stored

#20
post #2

It's a dual facing problem. Not only do users have no defence against google snooping, but google has no defence against requests to snoop: Apple seems to drive harder to "we'd help if we could, but we can't: to us its just blobs"

Apple regularly gives up customers' private data when requested, and they keep logs of it themselves[1]. [1] https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html

But Apple now has Advanced Data Protection that add E2EE for majority of iCloud data and they only keep keys on your devices. Not that I have absolute trust in Apple, but Google don't even have that.
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