I have a bad feeling about this • Hacker News Board

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#81

Post by scott_w » Thu, Feb 09, 2012, 9:18 AM UTC

edanm wrote: post #69

redstripe wrote: post #24

The BBC commissioned a study [1] that claims the Charles Dicken's brand brings in about £280m/year to the UK's economy. This from a public domain "brand". Meanwhile companies like Disney lobby for perpetual copyright to protect their own interest at the cost of all the lost opportunities that will never exist. I don't understand how politicians in the free enterprise countries, especially American republicans with th…

Your mistake is thinking about brands like Charles Dickens and Disney. Of course they make money, and of course they would continue producing work if copyright was only 20 years. What you have to think about is the author who is not famous, but who makes his living off of selling books. Not the millionaires, the ones with a regular salary. They often sell old stories to short-story collections, for example, for a few…

However, even with copyright we still undoubtedly lose talented authors due to them being unable to make enough money from book publishing. Same goes for software development, musicians etc.

You have merely stated your opinion as fact, and not provided anything that can back it up. The current proliferation of content producers (for want of a better word) can be just as easily put down to the larger audience granted by the web.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#82

Post by bwarp » Thu, Feb 09, 2012, 9:21 AM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #51

moonchrome wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The BBC commissioned a study that claims the Charles Dicken's brand brings in about £280m/year to the UK's economy. But who cares how much it "brings in" ? Why is money the sole metric of wealth. How much value does open source provide - take linux for eg. which is used in pretty much every aspect of computing these days - from cell phones to super computers - how much value has it provided to the consumers and allo…

"Why is money the sole metric of wealth. How much value does open source provide - take linux for eg. which is used in pretty much every aspect of computing these days - from cell phones to super computers - how much value has it provided to the consumers and allowed developers/researchers/manufacturers to produce ?" What unit would you use to measure the value it provides, if not money? "Apply that to every major op…

Does value need a standard or a measure? No.

Value is a different thing to different people.

Money is not required for value to exist.

There should be no intellectual property. There should be fair reward for positive contributions to society. Reward not protect. Provide an incentive rather than a pay off.

At the moment, society is based on money not value. It's founded on providing as little value for as much money as possible.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#83

Post by hkolek » Thu, Feb 09, 2012, 9:28 AM UTC

edanm wrote: post #79

lwhi wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I don't buy it. This is exactly the sob story that's served up to us by corporations like Disney and conglomerates like the RIAA. People create art for reasons other than making money. We're never going to end up with a world that's devoid of musicians, artists or authors. However we could plausibly find ourselves living in a world without these multinational corporations.

It's not a sob story. It's basic logic. You haven't refuted anything I've said, except for claiming that the story is one given by the likes of Disney and the RIAA, which is irrelevant and untrue. The only valid argument you've said is that people create art for reasons other than making money. Which is of course partially true. But obviously, to a lesser extent. I'm sure many people on HN would still program without…

yeah right because without copyright we wouldn't have shakespeare etc. ... oh wait ... copyright didn't even exist back then?! also i feel sorry for you that you think money is the prime motivating factor for creative work. ever heard of the starving artist?

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#84

Post by edoloughlin » Thu, Feb 09, 2012, 9:31 AM UTC

gaius wrote: post #78

moonchrome wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The BBC commissioned a study that claims the Charles Dicken's brand brings in about £280m/year to the UK's economy. But who cares how much it "brings in" ? Why is money the sole metric of wealth. How much value does open source provide - take linux for eg. which is used in pretty much every aspect of computing these days - from cell phones to super computers - how much value has it provided to the consumers and allo…

Why is money the sole metric of wealth. How much value does open source provide Why are feet and miles the metric of distance, can't we just have near and far? More seriously: value has to have a common unit of exchange. The grocery store clerk isn't going to give you your shopping for free because you happened to write some piece of software he isn't even aware of. Money allows value to be stored and transferred. An…

> Why are feet and miles the metric of distance.

Sorry to be glib, but as someone who lives with a sane system of units and measurements, I can't help but point out the irony of your statement.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#85

Post by ajuc » Thu, Feb 09, 2012, 9:38 AM UTC

edanm wrote: post #69

redstripe wrote: post #24

The BBC commissioned a study [1] that claims the Charles Dicken's brand brings in about £280m/year to the UK's economy. This from a public domain "brand". Meanwhile companies like Disney lobby for perpetual copyright to protect their own interest at the cost of all the lost opportunities that will never exist. I don't understand how politicians in the free enterprise countries, especially American republicans with th…

Your mistake is thinking about brands like Charles Dickens and Disney. Of course they make money, and of course they would continue producing work if copyright was only 20 years. What you have to think about is the author who is not famous, but who makes his living off of selling books. Not the millionaires, the ones with a regular salary. They often sell old stories to short-story collections, for example, for a few…

Do you really think it makes difference for a poor unknown author, whether he has exclusive rights for his book for 20 or 70 years? He can still sell his book after 20 years, after all. And regular people are not evil for the sake of it, if they want to buy a book, they would prefer to buy it from author, than from some opressive company.

BTW new economy makes it easy to extract value from the long tail. How much does author earn on each book? 10 % of final price? Probably less.

With if he self-publish an e-book, he can earn 100% of the price. Think about price difference for customer. Would you be more eager to buy book that is 1/10 the price? Would you be more eager to buy 21 years old book from author, or from some huge distributor?

Cutting out the middle man is the way to support more content producers with the same amount of customers. Copyright protects distributors, not producers.

Is it better for you to sell 10000 e-books, and know that for each book sold 10 more were pirated, or to sell 1000 e-books, and know nobody pirates them? I'd prefer the former.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#86

Post by edanm » Thu, Feb 09, 2012, 9:45 AM UTC

scott_w wrote: post #81

edanm wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your mistake is thinking about brands like Charles Dickens and Disney. Of course they make money, and of course they would continue producing work if copyright was only 20 years. What you have to think about is the author who is not famous, but who makes his living off of selling books. Not the millionaires, the ones with a regular salary. They often sell old stories to short-story collections, for example, for a few…

However, even with copyright we still undoubtedly lose talented authors due to them being unable to make enough money from book publishing. Same goes for software development, musicians etc. You have merely stated your opinion as fact, and not provided anything that can back it up. The current proliferation of content producers (for want of a better word) can be just as easily put down to the larger audience granted…

That's an excellent point.

My point was "less money goes into book in general -> we'll have less books".

You're right that there are other factors at play here, which are all intermingled. For example:

* It's easier to produce content now, bringing down costs.

* It's easier to reach a wide audience. Both because of the internet, and because people have more time to spend on content.

* Technological changes may make many new ways of making money, etc, and in general just change things.

...

Still, at the end of the day, an author has to sit down and write for 1000s of hours to make a book, and to do this over and over again to make a good book. If people can't make money from this pursuit, less people will be able to do it. Maybe in a few decades, there'll be other ways to get compensation for these pursuits that has nothing to do with copyright. I still think the mistake is to think only of the Disney's of the world without considering the tiny indie studios, the small-time authors, who barely manage to get by today. They must be a part of this conversation as well.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#87

Post by gaius » Thu, Feb 09, 2012, 9:47 AM UTC

edoloughlin wrote: post #84

gaius wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is money the sole metric of wealth. How much value does open source provide Why are feet and miles the metric of distance, can't we just have near and far? More seriously: value has to have a common unit of exchange. The grocery store clerk isn't going to give you your shopping for free because you happened to write some piece of software he isn't even aware of. Money allows value to be stored and transferred. An…

> Why are feet and miles the metric of distance. Sorry to be glib, but as someone who lives with a sane system of units and measurements, I can't help but point out the irony of your statement.

I'm in England, but assumed I was replying to an American.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#88

Post by davidw » Thu, Feb 09, 2012, 9:50 AM UTC

moonchrome wrote: post #37

redstripe wrote: post #24

The BBC commissioned a study [1] that claims the Charles Dicken's brand brings in about £280m/year to the UK's economy. This from a public domain "brand". Meanwhile companies like Disney lobby for perpetual copyright to protect their own interest at the cost of all the lost opportunities that will never exist. I don't understand how politicians in the free enterprise countries, especially American republicans with th…

>The BBC commissioned a study that claims the Charles Dicken's brand brings in about £280m/year to the UK's economy. But who cares how much it "brings in" ? Why is money the sole metric of wealth. How much value does open source provide - take linux for eg. which is used in pretty much every aspect of computing these days - from cell phones to super computers - how much value has it provided to the consumers and allo…

Because the people who (#)&#(#^^&% write Linux need money for things like houses, cars, food, health care, school, and so on. That's why money counts.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#89

Post by josephcooney » Thu, Feb 09, 2012, 9:59 AM UTC

nhebb wrote: post #45

redstripe wrote: post #24

The BBC commissioned a study [1] that claims the Charles Dicken's brand brings in about £280m/year to the UK's economy. This from a public domain "brand". Meanwhile companies like Disney lobby for perpetual copyright to protect their own interest at the cost of all the lost opportunities that will never exist. I don't understand how politicians in the free enterprise countries, especially American republicans with th…

You need look no further than primetime TV in the US. ABC and NBC both have shows based on Grimm's Fairy Tales - Once Upon a Time and Grimm . Both shows are doing well in the ratings and have the public domain works of Grimm to thank for it.

Not to mention vast swathes of the Disney canon is ripped whole-cloth from folk stories.

Re: I have a bad feeling about this

#90

Post by moonchrome » Thu, Feb 09, 2012, 10:03 AM UTC

davidw wrote: post #88

moonchrome wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The BBC commissioned a study that claims the Charles Dicken's brand brings in about £280m/year to the UK's economy. But who cares how much it "brings in" ? Why is money the sole metric of wealth. How much value does open source provide - take linux for eg. which is used in pretty much every aspect of computing these days - from cell phones to super computers - how much value has it provided to the consumers and allo…

Because the people who (#)&#(#^^&% write Linux need money for things like houses, cars, food, health care, school, and so on. That's why money counts.

As opposed to people who produce food, or oil, or anything else ? But giving them artificial monopolies is bad - right ?

People who wrote Linux found a model that works without forcing other people to pay for it. They do rely on copyright to prevent "free riders" but even without it the financial model is the same, eg. FreeBSD, or any other non copy-left licensed opensource project that has a commercial story. It turns out that without software, hardware is pretty much useless, so even if you can't profit on software directly, you can expect things like OS development to be driven by hardware manufacturers.

Money they could earn if they had monopolies on OS kernels would be extremely higher - but market isn't about creating profit for the producers - it's about creating value for the consumer, and consumer would get the value even if he didn't pay for it - so they are getting screwed by rent seeking.