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The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

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Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#91

Post by JaDogg »

epolanski wrote: post #64
ep103 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I bet you these people sure can leetcode!

While I've met plenty of terrible developers from the best universities and with the best grades and interviewing skills, people that was easily outclassed and outperformed by 3-month bootcampers, I can't lie crappiest one are much worse, people who struggle to implement very basic algorithms such as Fizz-Buzz.

Indeed, Leetcode is just slightly harder (or easier even) fizzbuzz anyway.

If you are given really hard questions in an interview or they ask for dumb invert binary tree like questions. It is most likely that person who interviews you is lazy or does not want to hire you but have no choice but to interview you.

I beleive pair programming interviews are the best. As they can be 1) Time limited so you don't take home and waste your time. 2) Can be a portion of a real world problem.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#92

Post by 4gotunameagain »

nonethewiser wrote: post #3
CraigRo wrote: post #2

A lot of very mediocre people were getting pretty astounding money. Happens every cycle.

> A lot of very mediocre people were getting pretty astounding money. Good

If everyone makes astounding money, noone makes astounding money. And meritocracy dies.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#93

Post by randomdata »

everforward wrote: post #89
randomdata wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shame about your house and life savings. One man's brilliance is another man's "who wrote this crap?" It is indeed quite likely that most of us, possibly even all of us, will fall below the median of someone's measure.

They're making a math joke. It's impossible for more than half of the sample to be below the median since the median is constructed so that half fall on each side. Having 60% of a sample below the median means someone calculated the median wrong.

> It's impossible for more than half of the sample to be below the median

No. It is very much possible when the measure is undefined, as was the condition setup before the bet was made.

If we take it to the logical end where your chosen measure is simply the inverse of my chosen measure, then those above the median by my measure fall below the median by your measure and vice versa, leaving the entire set of those outside of the median to be seen below the median (and also above the median).

As it pertains to the larger discussion, how the quality of a developer is measured has not been established, which means everyone is likely to measure differently and often in conflicting ways, and so most of us are bound to be below the median according to someone.

So, yes, this was originally pointed out in a humorous manner. The bet made on the basis of that joke was, indeed, unfortunate.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#94

Post by everforward »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16
yobid20 wrote: post #12

There are a lot of "software engineers" who can't code well. I see a lot of "google and copy paste until it works and deploy". No thoughts behind design. No idea about performance. No testing. No innovation. They all need to go.

Is that the fault of the devs or the broken processes where management promises unrealistic deadlines up the chain, so devs have no time to think about the bigger picture and just do everything in their power to ship something that barely works at the end of each sprint and move on to putting out the next fire? To me, the fault is in the industry and how the ships are run.

If that's happening, it's either a calculated decision or the senior devs aren't doing their job. Someone should be communicating to management that the solution won't scale, with estimates of when it will fail or maximum load and the amount of time it will take to do it correctly.

Sometimes it's legitimately not worth optimizing something that will never need those optimizations. Sometimes management doesn't realize something needs to be optimized before it falls over. Sometimes management does make a bad call and doesn't want to optimize something that should be, but that's been uncommon (at least for me).

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#95

Post by dr-smooth »

nerpderp82 wrote: post #84
naravara wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I tried warning people- here on HN the sentiment was 'we are indisposable'. Maybe if you were actually any good. I reckon at least 60% of these bootcamp alumni were just dead weight. I've interviewed so many people who "learned to code" but had no meaningful logical reasoning or problem solving skills. They could maybe understand syntax, but for the most part they just have some basic familiarity with various frame…

> had no meaningful logical reasoning or problem solving skills This is 70% of software development, this is why I think people from the hard sciences often make better software engineers (in the true engineering sense of the word) than people actually trained in CS. Most CS folks can't experiment their way out of a paper bag.

I take huge exception with this remark. I graduated with a BS and MS engineering at a top-20 US engineering school. I also earned an MS at a top-25 computer science program. I found the CS program dramatically more challenging. My CS classmates were some of the brightest problem solvers I've ever worked with in my life.

Then in my career, I have worked alongside some brilliant software developers who had academic backgrounds in non-technical fields like history or English.

I don't know if there's a way to assess someone's problem solving ability based on their field of academic study. It would seem that those from science and engineering fields (CS inclusive) would generally fare better.

Your dismissive comment about "most CS folks" is just offensive.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#96

Post by projectazorian »

naravara wrote: post #80
effingwewt wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History rhymes. This whole thing was a repeat of the dotcom bubble. Back then it was 'learn web design!' Here too we had bootcamps to learn to code in weeks. At that point the bubble was reaching critical mass. Same damn thing happened before. I tried warning people- here on HN the sentiment was 'we are indisposable'. When the cost-cutting measures and hiring freezes began I tried warning again and was told 'its not…

> I tried warning people- here on HN the sentiment was 'we are indisposable'. Maybe if you were actually any good. I reckon at least 60% of these bootcamp alumni were just dead weight. I've interviewed so many people who "learned to code" but had no meaningful logical reasoning or problem solving skills. They could maybe understand syntax, but for the most part they just have some basic familiarity with various frame…

> Developers are there for their programming skills, not pedagogical ones

This mindset will limit your advancement, teaching and mentorship work becomes increasingly key for senior and senior+ roles.

But I suppose by the time someone has a senior title and 5+ years of experience they’re not really in the category being discussed in this article.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#97

Post by aeternum »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #87
effingwewt wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

History rhymes. This whole thing was a repeat of the dotcom bubble. Back then it was 'learn web design!' Here too we had bootcamps to learn to code in weeks. At that point the bubble was reaching critical mass. Same damn thing happened before. I tried warning people- here on HN the sentiment was 'we are indisposable'. When the cost-cutting measures and hiring freezes began I tried warning again and was told 'its not…

I agree with you it’s in a lot of way similar to the dotcom bubble but the issue seems to me simpler than you make it seems. Propped by an easy access to cheap investment fonds, companies massively over hired developers to work on projets which have actually no value. The massive demand leads to under qualified people being hired. The current layoff is a return to a sustainable situation. And even then if you look at…

In control systems, a common tradeoff is between a fast response that overshoots or a slow response that does not overshoot.

We've seen that pace of innovation matters and if your goal is to maximize the pace of innovation, you want that fast response even if it means overshooting somewhat whenever there's a step change.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#98

Post by mrguyorama »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #81
giraffe_lady wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also hitting just as hard the people who were humble and hard working and who learned to code because it is (or was) one of the last firmly middle class jobs you could be allowed to do without a degree or background check. It doesn't only affect the people you don't like so I would chill on the glee, personally.

Tech-bros were by far the best paid class in the middle class. People laid off from big tech are now kicking it back in SE-Asia with the severance money they got. No tears will be shed for them. They'll easily find other employment outside of big-tech. They'll still be middle class. I'd put my energy caring more about underpaid teachers, doctors, nurses, emergency personnel, or other the lower classes of the middle c…

Most nurses, EMTs, and teachers haven't been middle class for DECADES.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#99

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

mrguyorama wrote: post #98
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech-bros were by far the best paid class in the middle class. People laid off from big tech are now kicking it back in SE-Asia with the severance money they got. No tears will be shed for them. They'll easily find other employment outside of big-tech. They'll still be middle class. I'd put my energy caring more about underpaid teachers, doctors, nurses, emergency personnel, or other the lower classes of the middle c…

Most nurses, EMTs, and teachers haven't been middle class for DECADES.

They are in Europe.

Re: The layoffs are here for those who chose to ‘learn to code’

#100

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

everforward wrote: post #94
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that the fault of the devs or the broken processes where management promises unrealistic deadlines up the chain, so devs have no time to think about the bigger picture and just do everything in their power to ship something that barely works at the end of each sprint and move on to putting out the next fire? To me, the fault is in the industry and how the ships are run.

If that's happening, it's either a calculated decision or the senior devs aren't doing their job. Someone should be communicating to management that the solution won't scale, with estimates of when it will fail or maximum load and the amount of time it will take to do it correctly. Sometimes it's legitimately not worth optimizing something that will never need those optimizations. Sometimes management doesn't realize…

Senior devs aren't the big decision makers. Management is.
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